That’s a really, really bad comparison – Gandalf isn’t a Jesus figure at all and Saruman was no scientist. If you want a comparison for the Bible, Gandalf is Elijah and Saruman is the prophets of Baal.
The books put a much stronger emphasis on the wisdom of great leaders, which is born of suffering, self-sacrifice, humility and service. Aragorn is among the greatest leaders, not only because of his lineage, but because of the wisdom he has gained through great trials. Faramir is like him except in lineage.
All of the heroes – including female – sacrifice greatly and are dependent on others. No one can do it all on their own.
@St.Roymond what else to you see?
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I appreciate that–I’d agree. I also agree the movie seems to glorify exploits of arms rather than nobility of character. I do struggle with Tolkien’s somewhat pagan glorification of lineage, though there are nearly biblical themes of the younger son succeeding (Enns notes that’s a Biblical theme in Jacob and Esau, Cain and Abel, etc; this seems to carry the same as a Christian emphasis on the supremacy of character over birthright).
Denethor’s assertion that thousands of years would not make a Steward the same as a King seems to affirm a natural order of command, but Tolkien’s affirmation of the hobbits (“very tough in the fibre, I deem”), and praising them with Aragorn at the end because of their sacrifice, seems to upend the “greater and lesser men” ideas to some extent. However, despite the fact that Frodo and Sam seem equally noble in sacrifice, Sam still does not get the same honor as Frodo, I think.
All in all, I do like the books much better than the movie. I have not yet read all of the Silmarillion, though. There’s a lot to get out of there.
I like the way you put it. The fact that no one can do it all on their own is also a great theme. There may be some of that replicated in the movie–I’m not sure, but do you think there’s a brotherhood/sisterhood theme, among the various peoples fighting Mordor?
Another theme, on immortality being associated with nobility, puzzles me a bit, but seems to fit with the Creation myth, the ANE fall from grace trope. The phrase, “heavy with the sadness of mortal Men,” that Legolas interprets the song of the Rohirrim, who are lesser and shorter-lived men, resonates with us as fallen ones, who left Eden (as Numenor), and can not find our way back.
It would be great to learn more.
Thanks.
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Another theme of Tolkiens that I wrestle with - and perhaps to some extent accept as (or ‘write-off as’?) mythic is his nearly clear division of good and evil in Middle-earth. Yes - you can have fallen men (Witch-King Nazgul of Morder), yet even so - the evil is pretty much cordoned off almost entirely into separate races. There are no fallen elves (except as represented then as orcs - which may as well be considered a separate race). About the only permanently fallen hobbit in the story is Gollum. Dwarves are basically good, even if lapsing into greed at times. The only real wrestling you see between good and evil within the same character are in people like Boromir or - yes - Gollum (one could argue about whether he was redeemed in the end). But by-and-large you have Christ figures like Gandalf and Aragorn, Elrond or Galadriel, or Bombadil who can do no real evil. Or even Frodo or Sam whose greatest transgressions may involve stealing some farmer’s mushrooms. And then orcs, goblins, trolls, balrogs - none of whom are capable of even any tiny shred of good. They are hell-scape fodder only.
And I can respect Tolkien’s mythic world for all those properties - it is enough for his story to show the conflict within a select few like Boromir, Bilbo, and Frodo. But there is something also endearingly precious to me about a deliberately contrasting world (Pratchett’s Diskworld) where goblins, trolls (think of Detritus) and witches all are shown with some members of their race exhibiting commendable kindnesses, and others despicable cruelty (it’s most extreme forms reserved more for men, though). For somebody who never self-identified as any sort of Christian believer (to my knowledge), Pratchett nonetheless was extremely sensitive to themes of justice - and what sorts of virtues and qualities put one on the righteous side of that spectrum. He was also much more generous in his spread of sympathetic character to those who are typically denied any redemptive theme (like witches or goblins - especially demons - think of the recent ‘Good Omens’ series.). In fact, I do believe a fair amount of Pratchett’s mythos is in nearly direct and deliberate reaction to (and contrast with) Tolkien’s.
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Not really in LotR, but there are definitely such in the Silmarillion, like Feanor and his sons. Fallen dwarves as well, but I can’t remember specific names.
Given their origin stories, orcs, trolls, and especially balrogs are basically constructed as being demonic and incapable of good. Balrogs are fallen powerful angels or archangels, as is Sauron.
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Good examples… Yeah I wasn’t thinking of Feanor.
And balrogs are the demonic counterparts to the good wizards. The Maia. … Angels and demons I guess you could say. And maybe Saruman would be a dramatic example where we get to witness one of those in the process of falling, though I suppose some might argue he had always been fallen from the beginning of the tale and was just a pretender.
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@Randy and @Mervin_Bitikofer I think you are identifying areas the demonstrate what Tolkien said about his own work: they aren’t Christian allegories.
Think about Norse, Germanic and other northern European mythologies and you will have a better basis for understanding the types of characters and “races” that appear in the world of Middle Earth. Tolkien also mimicked the very literary styles and forms (like the saga and ballad) that come from those ancient northern cultures. AND even the languages he created are based in their grammar, spelling and sound systems. I once sent @MarkD a recording of a German Romantic poem read out loud in German by a skilled reader of poetry, and he replied that it sounded like High Elvish – which it did.
Other things like the lineage of kings fits the old views of kings as well. Tolkien was recreating an ancient, pagan world.
Think Germanic and Norse. It fits better.
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Thanks. I remember your saying something about the influence of WW1 on both Tolkien’s and Lewis’ writings. I’m wondering if some of the black and white delineation may be related to either paganism or the WW1 ideology. I know that in that era, even German immigrants were sometimes persecuted in the US. Even “Anne of Green Gables” portrays the Germans as part of darkness taking over the world, in the later books, where Walter, Anne’s son, is killed in the war (@Christy may remember that portion, too).
On the other hand, Tolkien portrays the Swertings and some of those Men who joined Saruman against the Rohirrim in Helm’s Deep as deceived or resentful of bad things the “good” people have done (the “Pukel-Men,” or Woses/Wild Men, of the Druadan Forest were like that, too–though they allied themselves with the Rohirrim against the darkness of Mordor, despite having been hunted by the Rohirrim). I remember a quote from Sam, on seeing a man who died in the war after an ambush by Faramir and his men of Ithilien:
It was Sam’s first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man’s name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would rather have stayed there in peace.
It seems reminiscent of what many have run into in war.
Thanks for your good insight.
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Never knew there was so much more to the story. Thanks!
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I think there are unwhitewashable features of old fashioned racism and racial stereotypes as well.
Even the name “schwerting” is related to the German word “schwartz” (black) and which has dialect variations like “schwart”. They are racial references in German as well as English.
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Yes, absolutely. . I was going to lend a copy of this to a friend in Africa who loved the Narnia books, and hesitated because of that overtone. I did not wind up doing that. Which lends itself to a whole list of questions–we try talking about that with our kids, too, when we talk about the books. One can never be too careful to watch out for overtones. Thanks
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That’s the biggest one that I was going to start with.
It’s part and parcel of the whole concept of races, that heritage defines people. It goes a bit farther than that, though, with sort of an aura that rather than spreading to all descendants passes along a narrow line.
I’ve been re-reading the Wheel of Time books and found myself thinking of Sam; he would be the sort that in Jordan’s world would be woven over and over into the Pattern as a hero who makes other heroes possible. To me, in the books Sam is the greatest hero, something a bit lost in the movies.
Oh, it’s definitely present in the movies, right from the “You have my sword!” etc. moment onward. I recall moments where one character or another recognizes that what they’re doing serves somehow to help Frodo and Sam, something that flares up again at the end when Aragorn leads his pitiful army to distract Sauron.
Definitely.
Tolkien also struggled with this, so you’re in good company. For that matter it has troubled many players in games like Dungeons and Dragons; in early edition certain races (and certain monsters) were evil, period, but people started asking why ogres or trolls or dark elves couldn’t turn to the good.
In Christian terms Gandalf is an archangel. For others, there’s a concept of being “confirmed in the good” – the best summation I can recall offhand – that works for a number of others, the idea being that if someone is not just good but a servant of The Good long enough then they become incapable of doing otherwise; another phrase, “strengthened in the good” indicates that this isn’t done to them but is accomplished by them.
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That was how the original D&D games handled the issue, but the approach failed because there was no single great evil figure who was the source of it all and whose disciples made these races.
That gets argued back and forth on various forums!
There are touches of ANE mythology as well, but the northern European mold is definitely dominant.
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I don’t think there was any way to avoid such connections without inventing new words; evil is associated with darkness in pretty much all human mythology, and darkness with blackness.
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Unfortunately darkness as evil is associated with darkness of skin as if the outward appearance is somehow related to the nature of the being. This is a racist trope. It is dying but not fast enough.
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No doubt relevant in some contexts but then God is associated with bringing the light of understanding while darkness is where we remain without it in a very broad sense.
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Gandalf died in Moria ( we know that mount, don’t we?) and raised from the death. That can only point to Christ.
By the way: Saruman means handy man.
Only, if one forces a allegorical Christian reading on the books. To be sure, there is much in LotR that corresponds to Christian thinking. But there is much more that just doesn’t.
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Yes, we associate light with “illumination” as well as “enlightenment” and moral goodness. And darkness with evil, ignorance and depravity.
We have similarly been socialized to apply these concepts to skin color, likewise ways of appearance – various forms of beauty, ugliness, deformity, – socially constructed templates we use to prejudge and irrationally assess.
Tolkein was enlightened enough himself not to rely on analogous gender tropes for the few women who populate the books. I wish he had recognized and eliminated the ones to do with race.
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I disagree a pinch. The movies are done so well they are better than the books in some places. Boromir’s death is 50x better in the movie. It’s so cold and abrupt in the book. It’s an epic scene in the movie. Cutting out Tom Bombadil was also a great choice by the movie. Those of us like mythology can take a deep dive into Tom but he (or He?) does little to advance the story.
I can see clear parallels between Gandalf and Jesus in places. Whether intentional or not, they are there and many of us see them. They also do not have to be perfectly consistent with one another for us to see this.
Vinnie
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