I agree with you on this as well.
I think the 4th commandment makes it clear to follow this calendar, however using @Jonathan_Burke’s explanation of that being an expansion of what God said, I think Exodus 23 shows that this was a direct command quote from God, which does also verify the 4th commandment, even as expanded on my Moses or whoever wrote it.
So it would be wise/beneficial to honor this weekly calendar, but this could have nothing to do with the actual literal interpretation of Genesis and YEC,EC, or OEC. Knowing how young or old the Earth is will not change your life in any way. I just enjoy discussing it more as a hobby, or an opportunity to show a non-believer that all Christians are not just dumb, uneducated people, and also throw some gospel in there and reflect the light of God for all to see. Honoring the sabbath, however, can change your life, and God designed the sabbath for our benefit.
Remember the other reason given for the Sabbath was to remember the Exodus. And to former slaves having one day out of seven to rest would really be something special.
Also, after 6 figurative days God’s work of creation was complete, but He immediately started His work in creation. So while God may never get tired, His work is never done.
This is paraphrases from a sermon (not my thoughts)…though I do agree.
{Christ has freed us from the technicalities of sabbath law. The NT teaches us that Christ freed us from the law, because Jesus fulfilled the law. The laws were given to us as symbols of a greater reality, the shadows of something behind them. The festivals, the special days, the dress codes, all that stuff pointed to a greater reality, Jesus was that reality. So after He came, we no longer have to observe all the symbols/customs.
So the early church believed that the resurrection fulfilled the sabbath in 3 ways.
In 'Jesus resurrection from the dead, we see the fullness of God’s purpose for, and promises to, His creation.
In Jesus’s resurrection from the dead, we see what God ultimately intends to do, with His creation. Jesus’s resurrection is referred to as the 1st fruits of the new creation. God is doing in salvation is raising this world from the dead, and Jesus’s resurrection is the 1st fruit of that. On Sunday, we reflect on the fact that God has purposes us and for His creation.
In Jesus’ resurrection, we see God’s “rest” from redemption (or new creation). God creates the world in 6 days, and then takes a rest (sabbath). Then mankind sins, and screws up God’s creation. God ‘gets up’ from His sabbath rest and gets to work with His rescue plan for a new creation. When Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, and rose from the dead, that work was finished, and God rested again, resting from redemption (the new creation). The early church knew that that day celebrated a rest from God’s new creation.
In the resurrection, we see the proof of God’s promises to take care of us. God sent His own Son to die on our behalf, and raised Him from the dead. What better place is there to know and reflect on the fact that God will take care of our needs?
So the early church believed that Christ had fulfilled the sabbath law, and they felt free to change the day of rest to Sunday, and that day made sense to them. The point is not that sabbath is now Sunday and all Christians everywhere must rest and worship on that day. The point is that Christ is Himself the sabbath, and if we are resting and rejoicing in His resurrection, we have fulfilled the 4th commandment.
If you are in Christ, you are in the real sabbath rest. Christ is the point of the new creation, Christ is the rest of God’s work of redemption (new creation).
So we are free from the technicalities of the sabbath, much like we are free to eat bacon and other technicalities/customs of the Israelites. However, we are still human, and should still observe the principle of the sabbath. Sunday makes sense from the explanation above, but you can, and should pick a day, to rest, refocus, and remember Him.}
I think the other reason given for the Sabbath was to remember the Exodus, remember that God will provide and deliver and take care of us. Just as on our ‘other’ Sabbath (Jesus’s resurrection), we can remember that God will provide and deliver and take care of us.
I don’t think He started His work in u immediately after creation, I think He relaxed and enjoyed spending time WITH us. His work was complete (7 days). There was no more work needed. However, when we screwed up His creation, THEN He did have to get back to work, and did. But the second creation/redemption story didn’t take 6 days, it took ~6000ish years. But when we He returns to take us and give us glorified bodies, His work will be complete, and He will rest forever, and be WITH us, as He intended from the beginning.
Nice layout. And I have heard it all before – including myself as I taught it for many years!
The bolded above is one of the main points that I am trying to make. Our English translations interpretations (as informed by the Monarchical KJV translators in support of King James’ fight against the religious foment of the times.
In scripture, the word “Law” and “Commandment” mostly uses the word “word” (the Ten Commandments is in Greek “the Deca-logue” – Ten Words) which reflects the Hebrew sense.
Why am I talking about this? Because our Western" understanding has become legalistic and systematized
The word “law” in the Hebrew is the same as “word”. In Israel, the use of the word “word” was as if you are writing it as “THE WORD of GOD”. In the NT book of John, it starts out, “In the Beginning was “The Word”, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
The Ten Commandments, is actually “The Ten Words” in Hebrew (The Decalogue in Greek deca-ten logue-word)
In Greek, “the Word” is “Logos”. So as BioLogos’ name means the compatibility of Biology with the Creation by Jesus (who is “I Am the Word of Life”)
Unfortunately, the modern English translations of the Bible have followed the King James version, who’s translators were dedicated “Monarchists”. They consistently translated “Word” as Law.
In Ancient Israel, the word-roots used was often had the sense of “a guide-stone” that marked the paths that covered the land. Wide enough for a donkey or small pulled wagon, but mostly footpaths. The stones lined the path, but were NOT walls or solid devices. If you wandered off the path, then you could get into trouble, thorns, snakes, Lions, cliffs, rocks, or protective farmer.
For us the use of the word “Law” implies authoritarian meaning which leads to the kind of “guilt and shame” many of us (Especially Catholics and from more “conservative” or “fundamental” churches) learned from our church background.
So when you read “the law” is perfect, guiding the soul, it is both a “law of life” and a “guide on our pathway”. Not legal law.
In Israel, fences were not to keep people IN, they were to keep bad stuff OUT. We in our western world see Law as an INWARD fence keeping us in. OT LAW is to show us where the safe zones lay.
My friend @Jason replied this to a conversation we were having elsewhere.
Jesus is the word of life. He said " came not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved." Does taht sound like LAW?
My “mission” is to hope that those of you “Sunday Keepers” recover the “joy” of the Sabbath, and inter the SDabbth rest. I am afraid I see little of it in the “normal” day of modern churches or almost every stripe. I am certainly NOT condemning anybody.
Just take the time to see an alternate view, that encompases both the “words” of the Father from the Old Testament are compatible with (and fulfilled by,—BUT NOT NEGATED-- in essence) by the New Testament.
Thanks @still_learning. I appreciate you attention to my post, and given your Alias. I have a feeling you might be more receptive than some!
I have never heard that the word law is supposed to mean word. Thanks for that educational snippet and the one about guide-stones. That does make it easier to understand a fulfillment of the law/word and the freedom the word gives and always gave.
I also heard from a sermon, an interesting analogy/explanation of the meaning of freedom. If a fish wants out of the water “to be free” and it hops out, it will die. That isn’t freedom. Our society thinks that freedom is living our desires, however freedom is living our design. The ten commandments/words are freedom, true freedom. Not living our desires which will most certainly harm us (like a fish out of water), rather living our design, which will not only help us, but glorify God and others who observe our true freedom. A slave cannot have 2 masters. Are you a slave to your desires? Or a slave to your design?
Sorry to get too far off topic.
However, is the word law used properly some places, were some is should say word, and some it should say law? Law being something that has legal consequences. If you wonder off the guide-stone path, you don’t get stoned to death. Sure there are consequences like you say, snakes ect. But being stoned isn’t a consequence, rather a punishment, for breaking a law. Though I wouldn’t saw all laws are for guilt and shame, some are for deterrent reasons. If you know there is a server punishment, you might think twice before you break it, or try that much harder to not get caught.
Would you say the word law translated properly in some instances?
That’s God speaking, but it says nothing at all about creation. As I have pointed out, God directly gave the commandment that Israel should keep the sabbath, but He did not tell them it was to commemorate creation. This is why Moses told Israel it was to commemorate their exodus from Egypt.
Discussions on the Sabbath must begin with the fact that observance is one of the ten commandments, and for Christians and Jews this is non-negotiable.
I am intrigued however, by arguments that seem (to me at least) that observing the Sabbath is equivalent to observing a 24 hr period that is the same as the seventh day of creation. I cannot see how anyone can construct a calendar that exactly begins with day 1 of creation, through the six days, and then the seventh day.
If we accept that this is impossible, we are left with a view that once we define when a year starts, and ends, and this period is divided into 7 day weeks, we would choose a period in that calendar as the 7th, and declare this is the day of rest, and be content that we are obeying the commandment. We can never argue that this is the exact period that commemorates the initial 7th day of creation.
On Sunday as the Christian Sabbath, I am aware that Christ went to a synagogue every Sabbath, as did all the Jews. The observance of the Sabbath was not simply resting, but also hearing the Bible read and associated activities. When Paul began to preach the Gospel, he went to the local synagogue - when the Jews refused to hear, he met outside the synagogue with those who were called to the Gospel. We may say that a distinction between Jew and Christian was made then (even though most Christians were also Jews). If the Christians could not attend the synagogue, I suspect that he would have to find another way to observe the Sabbath - I suspect that the practice to observe the day of resurrection may have grown from this. Nonetheless every Christians believes that one day in a seven day week is the Sabbath and we are poorer for failing to observe this, in this age of materialism.
Thanks for your kind reply!
The only thing that is the same between the guide-paths and the “law” is that there are consequences. You are right in wanting to know where there are “laws” and where there are “guidestones” meaning which ones are “negotiable” and which ones are not. That is the “Western” view I was talking about.
God’s creation (however he achieved it) is built upon this premise that all decision/actions have a result. In science it is the “Law of Thermodynamics” “Energy Transfer” or “The Law of Gravity” (and you can’t negotiate them) In religion, it is how you are seen within your worship community (negotiation depends upon your group’s interpretation). In Society, it is laws from speeding tickets to capital murder (and negotiation occurs in a courtroom).
To continued… I have to run now. Be back this afternoon.
I am responding because I think that response by @RLBailey is perhaps misleading. The word that means "word’ in the OT is “commandment” and not “law.” A “commandment” is a spoken word, which is also a law, however only the 10 Commandments are the 10 Words or Logos. When Jesus and Paul were discussing the Law, they were talking about the Torah (Law) they were referring to the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, which are the basis of Judaism, as the first four books of the Greek Bible, the Gospels, is the basis of Christianity.
Now I know from speaking to Ray that he separates the Decalogue from the rest of the Torah and says that Christians are still sound by the Decalogue, but not the rest of the Torah. It is my position and most Christians I believe that Christians are no longer bound by the Old Covenant which uses the Torah as covenant law. We are bound by the law of the new covenant which is Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. This is the Summary of the Law, but it is not the Law or the Decalogue.
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega of our faith. He is the Object of our faith and He is the Way to that Object. Jesus is the Word, Logos of God, but He is not the Decalogue. Christianity is not an upgrade of Judaism. Christianity is a new faith that does what Judaism fails to do, save humanity from sin and bring humans into right relationship with God the Father.
Please allow me to clarify what you consistently misunderstand about my position. I am not saying we are “Bound” by the Ten “Words”. No, we as Christians are not “Bound” to the Ten Commandments any more than anyone is “bound” to the “Thou Shall not Murder” or Adultery, ot Stealing, or any of the other “Commandments”. These are the “common rules” of healthy and wise living God set out fo all Humankind, as first expressed in the Israelite “Torah” and then “permissively” modified by Jesus.
THAT I CHOOSE TO FOLLOW ALL OF THEM IS MY EXPRESSION OF LOVE AND OBEDIENCE TO MY ELOHIM GOD! I lay no “binding” upon any others to follow unless they are so “called” by Father YHWH in his wisdom. No more than anyone is “bound” to follow Jesus unless they choose to.
I will also, for @still_learning sake, to reiterate, that my studied interpretation is based on the original “ROOT” meanings of the Hebrew, which are consistently overlooked by Biblical Scholarship, who are shaped by the legalisms, not by the freedoms that Elohim God built into his cosmos from the start.
My position is perhaps more “mystical” than your, but is firmly rooted in the desire to be obedient to the “INTENT” OF THE SO-CALLED LAWS, WHICH IS THE LAW OF LOVE AS JESUS SPECIFIED AS HIS REASON FOR COMING TO EARTH (jOHN 3) AND THE REASON FOR ALL THE “LAWS” BEING FULFILLED (not negated!) – AGAIN, JOHN 3. (I came not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved).
I had thought that a person who uses @Relates would be more sympathetic to this kind of discourse. But I see you still are very committed to defending “the law” as a negation of love instead of a protective device.
I still hold you as a brother-in-Christ however much we may disagree in certain details.
You are correct, in that statement if you are concerned that Genesis 1-2 is implying a 24 hour day creation act. As a firm adoptee of Walton’s premise of it being a Relgious Formation Account, then the seventh day is adopted as a religious function of time, not a reflection of the actual creative time. Hence no conflict. I suppose from your viewpoint the YEC’s should have a problem with counting the Sabbath, but don;t see it that way.
One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord…
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval. Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.
You are missing a very important aspect of the point you made when you point to the fact that “commandment” is translated “logos” on Greek. That is Jesus Christ is the Logos of God in John 1:1. If Jesus is the 'law," then this Divine Law or Word transcends the Decalogue.
A covenant has three aspects, the covenant relationship, the covenant agreement. and the covenant law. This clear in the Mosaic Covenant or the Decalogue. For the New Covenant of Jesus Christ, Jesus is the relationship, Jesus is the agreement, and Jesus is the covenant law. They are related, but different.
Thanks for reminding me of that one! I should have dug it up out of my memory sooner!
And one (the OT is “fulfilled” not negated. I can practise both (see above @Jay313) and be completely within the circle of Yeshua’s love!
[Quote=“Eph 2:14-15”]
For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace." [/quote]
Bolded Mine
I just found this passage that expresses my view of the difference between “fulfillment” and “negation”. I believe that actual “commandments” of the Decalogue are “still in order” while the OT expression of them are NOT!
I think, @Relates we are speaking of two sides of the same coin! Blessings!
I hope we are, but I am still most concerned that millions of “conservative Christians” have been persuaded by legalistic arguments to support a decidedly anti-Christian political agenda under the leadership of an evil political genius. This should not be happening in the Church of Jesus Christ and I want to do all I can to purge God’s Church from every semblance of christian legalism.
Amen to that. I was raised under legalism and my current stance is an outgrowth of being told “…just believe, you don’t have to understand it.” which is a "legalism within itself!
Thank is why we need to clearly understand that Jesus Christ is the Logos.
The Greeks has another word for a “word,” and that is “mythos,” which is a word or meaning based on tradition and authority, the opposite of logos. People who base their ideas on a traditional understanding of the Bible as the Mythos of God are not Bible believers, but Bible deniers.
Jesus never asked people to believe in Him as the Messiah because He said He was the Messiah, but because He did the Will of the Father, even though many of His contemporaries denied this. He asked people to use their brains and think for themselves. This is the essence of the logos. God expects us to understand and take responsibility for ourselves.
My fault, I see what you are saying is still valid.
However, I still think the many parallels to literal 7 days through the Bible would make this an odd exception.
Define/elaborate on non-negotiable. Observance of this isn’t required for our salvation, it is just going to benefit us if we observe it like any of the 10 commandments. I can’t speak to the Jews or what it means to them.
This is extremely literal and legalistic. Are you asserting that one must follow all commandments to be saved? It isn’t about how well we feel we are or aren’t obeying a commandment. God loved us first, and in that relationship with Him through Jesus, we are lovingly responding in obedience, but even more-so from a ‘selfish’ point of view, it is better for us to obey this commandment, as God designed us and knows our designer specs that we operate best in. Think of the 10 commandments as an owners manual specs. It will do its mission the best if it remains withing the designer’s specifications. If you miss one, or two, you just do your best to observe it every 7 days, or a specific 7th day if you wish, or a revolving 7 days if that is how your schedule is. I don’t there there is anyone who claims this is exactly the 7th day multiple after creation, which it appears to me you are inferring?
I wouldn’t say every, but most. But I agree, to our own detriment, poorer for failing to observe this.
The Sabbath is one of the ten commandments. Christ is shown in the Gospels to observe the Sabbath, and His example shows us how: (a)to hear God’s word (Christ explained sections of the Bible) (b) to do good works, such as healing the sick and strengthening our faith, and (c) to show why God commands observance, as we rest from our daily labours and listen to God’s Word.
All of these matters work to our salvation.
I cannot understand your comment - the ten commandments are the articulation of the great law, to love God and our neighbour - there is no distinction, but elaboration of the great command.
I cannot comprehend you analogy with a manual - if you are referring to the Sabbath rest, Hebrews shows us that we look to the final Sabbath, when we take time to observe the 7day Sabbath. All this deals with salvation in Christ, and not some machine manual.
