The Origins of Young Earth Creationism

Read through it again, more slowly. I referred to Baugh as a particularly nutty young-earth advocate who participated in a Hare Krishna “documentary” [“Mysterious Origins of Man”, if anyone wants to look it up], not as a reliable source. It was illustrating the fact that the “old earth” approach of Hare Krishnas is actually quite different from the “old earth” position of modern geology, just as the “young earth” position of Ussher is quite different from the “young earth” position of Ham. Likewise, it should not be too hard to guess that the Michael Tuomey who wrote Geology of South Carolina (Details - Report on the geology of South Carolina - Biodiversity Heritage Library) is not the politician.

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That’s pretty much what the video says.

I have to add, that while we don’t have many Adventists in my area, I did have an Adventist co-worker once. She was a very nice, devout Christian and respectful of others. I helped her find sources for non-dairy milk, which wasn’t easy to find at the time. She said that healthy eating was part of the Adventist message. An Adventist developed processed breakfast cereal, which was considered a health food at the time. At any rate, cold cereal is certainly popular these days.

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My mom was in an Adventist hospital for a couple of days when she was dying. I appreciated that the cafeteria was set up with prepackaged self-serve on Saturday. The rest of us should be so faithful to observe the Lord’s Day of rest with respect to commercial activity.

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In a lot of ways, the hospitals I’ve been in contact with that are Adventist associated have been the best run and given the best patient care. Despite their sort of quirky history, the SDA folks I know are basically Baptists who meet on Saturday, and who have a healthier lifestyle.

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I was a member of a church plant when we lived somewhere else, and one of the places we met on Sundays was an SDA church. We were thankful for them!
 

And to Dan’s comment,

YECs and SDAs can be off on some things (and militant YECs, way off), but in general we agree that Jesus is true, and in more than one sense of the word.

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Is that like a phicus??? :wink:

Sorry, I wasn’t clear enough. This YEC was grateful for EG White’s prophecies about creation and the global flood.

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Ah. Yes, that is different! And obviously, I was mainly speaking to soteriology. Militant YECs (and some others) as well as some SDAs can get the hierarchy of importance skewed.

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I’ve been at a similar one once: a PCA service that regularly met in an SDA building in Honolulu (there due to a meeting).

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With the exception that at the most fundamental level, Baptists are Calvinists and SDA’s are Arminian…two completely opposing views on the predistination debate. We believe in an allknowing almighty God, however, we disagree completely with the Calvinist view of what that means for created beings. (i don’t know about you, but I’m pretty sure most Calvinist Baptists would be horrified to be compared as Seventh Day Adventists who just worship on Sunday instead of Saturday).

For example, some significant differences between the two organisations:

  1. the “state of the dead”. SDA’s believe in Soul sleep, Baptists believe in an eternal Hell
  2. SDA’s believe in the heavenly sanctuary investigative judgment doctrine, baptists do not
  3. SDA’s believe that the law (10 commandments) were not done away with at the cross in a new covenant. We believe that the New Covenant is, in fact, no different to the Old Covenant. The only difference is in the recipient. Instead of the Israelites being expected to take it upon themselves to read and keep a promise, God has now taken it upon Himself to write His laws on our hearts and in our minds instead of on two tablets of stone!
  4. from point 3 above, SDA’s worship the Seventh Day Sabbath according to the 10 commandments…mainstream baptists (with the exception of Seventh Day Baptists) do not
  5. SDA’s do not drink alcohol…Baptists are far as I am aware do
  6. SDA’s do not eat unclean meat…as far as I am aware this is not a Baptist doctrine (or at least I know that Fundamentalist Baptists have no issue with pork and eat it)
  7. SDA’s pay tithe to the church…Baptist tithing doctrine seems a bit ambiguous

The Baptist Faith and Message 2000 does not specifically refer to a tithe or 10 percent. It does say, “Christians should contribute by their means cheerfully, regularly, systematically, proportionately, and liberally for the advancement of the Redeemer’s cause on earth.” Do Southern Baptists Really Tithe? - Baptist Courier

  1. as mentioned at the start of this post, SDA’s are Arminian not Calvinist.

I think that I have reasonably answered your argument such that it is quite obvious, the two are not even close to being similar. Whilst I agree our origins began on a similar branch of the knowledge of the reformation era, we differ in some very significant doctrinal areas beyond this point. SDA’s are not Saturday worshipping Baptists in any way shape or form. Our doctrines even differ significantly from the Millerites that we are so closely associated with.

I am leaving this discussion…honestly dealing with people that come up with conspiracy theories is like trying to listen to the heehawing of donkeys.

On the one hand i am hearing widespread denominational earbashing of EG White as a plagerist, on the other David is claiming that her plagerised works were cited by Price, who was then quoted by another writer…honestly, do you have any idea what this means academically?

It means that because the first authors work is claimed to be plagerised, then subsequent work is fundamentally flawed and cannot be given any credibility. Price quotes plagerised work!

So here is the deal, either you stick with the “EG White is a discredited plagerists whom no one considered a viable writer with any authority” or,

You right here and now claim EG White did not plagerise and prop up the founding prophetess writings that form the basis of the SDA church!

Either way…its a win win position for me!

BTW can someone please get your time period right…I am now seeing a lot of arguments put forward about YEC that date in the 70’s, 80’s and even later now…have we fogotten that EG White died almost 100 years ago and that Price died around the same time? As i have stated before (although clearly no one noticed) Prices writings did not get any weight in the literal creationist view until after the 1960’s!

It is a straw man argument to continue on with this YEC rot. YEC is not a new thing, it has been around for 6,000 years and the reason for this is obvious…read the bible Genesis Chapter 1-3, the writings of Paul…its pretty obvious why a literal reading of the creation account is necessary.

If you do not believe in a literal creation account, then you are denying the need for salvation. The bible clearly states:

“and God commanded Adam, do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for in the day you eat of it you shall die”

“the wages of sin is death”

"She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Theistic evolutionists can try to explain this away all they like…TE’s are denying the words inspired by God in the Bible…TE’s are denying Christ…TE’s are rejecting salvation because TE’s are rejecting the need for a saviour.

Greetings! I consider you a brother in Christ. I am interested to read your comments. Have you ever posted on the SDA Spectrum discourse? I found it very interesting and insightful. How Not to Argue Against Evolution - Spectrum Website - Spectrum Conversation

Most of my own family are YEC nondenominational or Baptists. My parents were missionaries in West Africa,where I was born and grew up. Our hospital in Galmi participates in the SDA Loma Linda administered general surgery residency, training Christian surgeons to serve in Africa (PAACS). I have worked for a time in an SDA hospital (Jellico, TN), where I felt they gave terrific care. I considered working in the Southwestern Medical Clinic in Berrien Springs, MI, which is quite closely associated with the SDA movement (but they wound up not needing another doc, after all, at the time).

Blessings!
Randy

But his parents were Noah and Mrs. Noah!

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Interesting list and I am sure you are right about a lot, though most Baptists would not know the difference, and on the issue of alcohol would just consider SDA to be “good Baptists” rather than the typical.
Armenian vs. Calvinism is interesting in Baptist circles. While there are some more fundamentalist Baptists who are stanch Calvinists, there is a strong Armenian tradition in many Baptist circles. So, it depends. I think the division is between General Baptists and Reformed Baptists, but in the Southern Baptist Convention, there is a lot of argument about it among those who care, with many on each side.

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Tell that to most of the local ones (hour due west of Charlotte) I know and they’ll definitely disagree with you. Most of them are strongly opposed to predestination, among other Calvinist doctrines that I am inclined towards.

It would almost be a truism to say that most Christians don’t know the history of their own denominations, wouldn’t it? For instance, in this case,

  • “There were two groups in early Baptist life: the Particular Baptists and the General Baptists. The Particular Baptists adhered to the doctrine of a particular atonement—that Christ died only for an elect—and were strongly Calvinist (following the Reformation teachings of John Calvin in orientation; the General Baptists held to the doctrine of a general atonement—that Christ died for all people and not only for an elect—and represented the more moderate Calvinism of Jacobus Arminius, a 17th-century Dutch theologian.” [Source: Brittanica]

I posted a statement of faith directly from a Southern Baptist group’s own website (of whom if i recall correctly a well-known scholar of the Baptist Calvinist theology is Dr James White - Alpha OMega Ministries). If you want to find out what Baptists believe, would you not research from their own statement of faith?

Again the point is completely missed, the claim was made that Baptists and SDA’s are the same…we are most definitely not…the SDA statement of faith is completely opposed to that theology!

The southern Baptists are alive and kicking and putting in a strong following (about 14 million of them if my numbers are correct)…i suggest you start listening to Dr James Whites youtube channel Alpha and Omega Ministries.

What you have not bothered to also include in your research is that the general baptist population are considered by the more traditional southern baptists, to have stray from their traditional calvinist roots! It is generally accepted that even the modern baptists still adhere to 3 of the 5 themes of Calvinism.

Also, my research tells me that Baptists generally do not accept that we can loose our salvation…

Most Baptists have held to what is called the doctrine of “eternal security” or “once saved always saved.” Historically, it has been referred to as the “perseverance of the saints.” https://www.baptistmessenger.com/baptist-beliefs-assurance-of-salvation-and-the-christian-life/

Seventh Day Adventism disagrees with this theology…we feel that the very definition of the perseverance of the saints in the book of revelation clearly outlines a TWO PART contract:

  1. they are those who “keep the commandments of God”
  2. and they are those who “have the faith of Jesus”

SDA’s do not believe “once saved always saved”, that is significant difference between the two denominations.

What i find interesting in this thread is how little about other religious denominational beliefs some supposedly well-informed individuals appear to demonstrate. I guess is a sense we are all at least a little guilty of making claims completely at odds with other denominational published beliefs and indeed even reasonable logical and consistent evidence outside of realm of hee-hawing donkey conspiracy theories!

JW’s make this same mistake which is i think generally agreed to be part of the reason why, once they are roped into that organization, they are so easily deluded by the false writings of Watchtower in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. This is further exacerbated by a tendency to seek to limit further and higher education (in a general sense) of their membership…its dark ages stuff!

I must reiterate however, this garbage that EG White is essentially the founder of the YEC movement is nothing more than a heehawing donkey conspiracy theory…particularly in light of the use of Price in the mix. That has already been categorically rejected by the current proponents of the YEC movement (which consists of organisations such as Creation Ministries. Its not that SDA’s do not believe in the movement, or that we are unhappy with the label, just that the claim is completely unsupported by logical and consistent factual evidence. Even the idea itself is not sustainable from your own Biologos heritage…her views were unscientific as she was not a scientist. Are you honestly trying to make the claim that Dr Kurt Wise (with his degrees in science) is a crackpot influenced by, what general religious communities claim, was a plagiarising heretic who did not have visions but rather psychotic episodes? That is an absurd proposition! Now i am quite happy if you wish to lay yourself at the feet of one of the founders of the SDA church with this…we’d love to have you in the fold and you can immerse yourselves in a real christian experience with good knowledge and understanding of the literal reading of the bible creation story also referenced directly by both the Messiah himself as well as the apostle Paul.

You recall incorrectly. James White is a Reformed Baptist. Southern Baptists are a bit of a big tent organization.

Which for some strange reason only you bring up.

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I won’t burden you with all the details, but my Deaf stepmother was a Southern Baptist and her son (my stepbrother) was a Southern Baptist preacher to the Deaf in Oklahoma, Arkansas, Texas, Arizona, and California. I attended until I was adopted by a Missouri Synod-Lutheran just before I turned 12. I was fully immersed in baptism when I was nine and, as a P.K., had to memorize and recite all the articles of Luther’s Small Catechism before my father would confirm me when I was 14.

As for listening to James White, I have; and know enough about the Reformed Baptists to know I’d consider myself lucky if nobody blew a whistle on me and walked me to an exit within a month.

True, but … attention spans tend to be brief, IMHO, Besides, I’m 73: I could fall off my horse any day now.

I have Deaf SDA cousins and my mother’s maternal grandmother and great-grandparents were SDAs. I have enough esteem for them and, even knowing as little SDA theology as I do, I know enough to understand the importance of the Sabbath and not to offer them tea, coffee, or alcohol or ask for bacon with my eggs in the morning. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

You’re “preaching to the choir”. I don’t buy it either.

“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6

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