Klax
(The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)
101
The trouble with even 100% accurate accusations of lying is that the best liars immediately lie twice as much; they double down. Furthermore their constituents, their support base, know that their leaders are lying, but they are lying for them, on their behalf, against other… liars. Any criticism of them is a lie, is an agendaed distortion of their concerns. Any truth that they don’t like is a lie when used by their opponents. In the Pericope Adulterae Jesus didn’t accuse anyone of anything, despite the fact that they were engaged in a doubly murderous lying conspiracy. We have to get lateral, subversive, with love. As I relentlessly fail to do on this site : )
PS How prescient of me:
Evolutionary/cognitive perspective
From a simpler perspective, natural selection will tend to reinforce a tendency to generate weak associations or heuristics that are overgeneralized. If there is a strong survival advantage to making correct associations, then this will outweigh the negatives of making many incorrect, “superstitious” associations.[17] It has also been argued that there may be connections between OCD and superstition.[18] This may be connected to hygiene.
A recent theory by Jane Risen proposes that superstitions are intuitions that people acknowledge to be wrong, but acquiesce to rather than correct when they arise as the intuitive assessment of a situation. Her theory draws on dual-process models of reasoning. In this view, superstitions are the output of “System 1” reasoning that are not corrected even when caught by “System 2”.[19]
I don’t think we can read the minds of YEC’s and decide that the rank and file creationist knows they are peddling lies. In fact, the psychology of conspiratorial thinking is probably way more complex than we may think. Can people completely convince themselves that something demonstrably false is actually true? I think it can be done. At some point we aren’t dealing with a scientific debate but a psychological hurdle.
this makes sense. It also fits into why some false prophets and dictators will die for their causes–Jim Jones, some warlords, etc. I have to, in honesty, say that that is one reason I can’t use the apostles’ deaths as very strong reasons for their belief in the resurrection. There’s some proof, but not the strongest, in someone dying for a cause.
That’s what I have always thought myself. I can see how it could be convincing to believers, but there are obvious issues that are probably impossible to resolve. In the case of the apostles, I think we can all agree it is a matter of faith.
In contrast, the age of the Earth and evolution are matters of scientific evidence, not faith. That’s the real difference.
True. It is a balancing act to know how to interact with folks like these and other conspiracy theorists.
I suppose it depends on the person, though; some of my closest friends and family members are invested in claiming everyone from Fauci to evolutionists act out of evil intent. Others only absorb it from what they are taught, and I think are open to learning.
I am studying Hittite and Luwian, and it’s fairly uncontroversial that the term ‘Hittites’ was used in the Iron Age to describe the kingdoms of Northern Syria, but these are not the same as the Bronze age Hittites in Central Anatolia.
My Mom has somehow fallen into that crowd. She mentions absolute bonkers stuff about Bill Gates, Fauci, vaccines, COVID statitistics, and so on. Most of the time I just smile and nod my head. I mentioned all of this to my sister and her response was, “Mom needs a new hobby”. That made me laugh. At some point I might ask her to sit down at the computer and show me the websites she visits. She knows her son works in the field of infectious disease research, so she has actually been open to some of what I have said, but some of the comments she makes still floor me. Could we start a new reality TV show on conspiracy theory intervention?
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Klax
(The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)
108
You’re right T. The psychology is far more complex. And yes, of course, it starts with conspiracist ideation. I was side tracked by Trump and his uneducated base, brilliantly described by Michael Sheen in The Good Fight. But it’s all the same, as I started to connect via superstition.
We ain’t a primarily rational species.
PS reading on on conspiracy theory. Wow!
PPS I am living proof that one can be saved from this.
This is a good, observable point. People from any background, religion, identity, etc have died for their beliefs or lifestyles. And people with different beliefs have selflessly protected people different from themselves.
This is important to experience, or at least accept.
Jesus is very clear that loving your neighbor means behaving graciously and self-sacrificially toward people who are completely different, even our “enemies”.
Back in the day, when people joined extremist cults, you used to be able to hire extraction experts to physically remove them and supervise a deprogramming kind of therapy. But now that people can basically join cults without leaving home and all the community-building and radicalization and mind control happens online, it seems like it’s much harder to both identify cult groups (easier when they have some commune on unincorporated land somewhere where they all isolate from the real world) and harder to get people out of them.
Really good points Christy. I think there is good reason to compare adherance to AIG (as well as comspiracy groups) with adherance to a cult. There are a lot of similarities: claims of particular, hidden knowledge; promise of (and control over) salvation (either spiritual or physical); special revelation or understanding/enlightenment; charismatic leader who not only convinces people he or she holds the key to interpretation or the gnostic knowledge; and money/power/influence. And so on.
Some aspects of YEC homeschooling communities get cult-like. I don’t know that AIG by itself is, maybe. Definitely some of the Q/Trump/Conspiracy groups these days though.
Does that include yourself and this Biologos site in general? After all, it seems that Biologos has surrendered their belief in God’s word to evolution, not science.
One of the worst cults out there is evolution. It is insidious, and you cannot believe it and the bible at the same time, no matter what people tell you. Genesis is not a book of mythology. If it were, then you can throw out your whole bible as it is built on sand.
When you preach that either/or ultimatum to people, you better be sure yours isn’t the house built on sand. After 45 years as a Young Earth Creationist, I realized without a doubt that YEC is that house. It is not only evolution (biology) that contradicts it, but just about every other word ending in *ology, and also known history.
Hi, Patrick. Welcome to the forum. Hopefully you will find some discussion here that brings truth and light even if your expectations are otherwise.
I will only add this for my own part. One of the hallmarks of ‘cultish’ activity is to cocoon the ‘faithful’ away from wider reality. It might be an interesting experiment for you to do, if you dare, to compare your experiences at YEC sites with what you find here or anywhere where people take an enthusiastic interest in God’s world and all its creatures and people. The more cult-like places will encourage their faithful to stay within only their own controlled information-feeds. Those interested in truth and reality, on the other hand, are marked by curiosity and engagement. We want to know when we’re wrong, and are excited when something new revolutionizes the way we can see things. The latter doesn’t happen often because when one approaches life this way, the low-hanging fruit gets picked fairly quickly. That’s why I happily cast my lot with those interested in opening up their minds to what God has to show them both in the reality of his creation as well as his written word. Those who’ve decided that their own fallible understandings are already complete are forced to be more insular and protective against the ravages of reality. It is indeed a foundation of sand - when people attempt to make a certain understanding of Genesis their foundation instead of Christ - the true foundation: the cornerstone and author of our faith. May you be increasingly drawn higher with us all toward Him in that regard.
Your comments have a theological dimension and a scientific one. I personally prefer not to respond to the theological aspects of your comments because,
a) Such discussions always come down to my interpretation verses yours and no progress can be made
b) evolution is true or not true independent of one’s theology, and
c) I am new to BioLogos and it would not be appropriate for me to comment, I will let others who are far better qualified do that.
My response to you will be confined to your comments about evolution. You might not have read my previous posts on this topic and I recommend that you do because I specifically refer to the kind of interaction you have just commenced. That is, a young earth creationist (You) denouncing evolution, claiming it is not science, and calling it an insidious cult.
My firm response to you is as follows. If you hold this view, then you must not understand evolution, and you must not have researched the scientific literature, or consulted any scientists. It is clear that you do not know how evolution works, how science works, how evidence works, and I suspect you may not know how to construct an argument that is both valid and sound. I recommend that you study the scientific method, learn the history about evolution and natural selection, and take a look at some videos on genetics and genomics too. I am happy to recommend a number of resources if you are interested.
I am more than happy to engage with anyone on the topic of evolution if it has the potential to be meaningful and productive, but this is not possible with someone who is merely making baseless claims and wild accusations. If you want to have a conversation, it needs to be grounded in fact. So you will need to acquire a thorough knowledge of the science involved. You need to learn about the massive body of evidence and the multi-disciplinary support for evolution from every other area of science. You will then come to realize (as thousands of ex-YECs have before you) that everything you have been told about evolution from within your YEC bubble is wrong and that you have been lied to for years. Then come back here to BioLogos and have a proper, informed conversation with me. I welcome the opportunity to do that with you when that day comes.
Christy, I think a lot of the articles on the AIG website at least encourage cult-like behavior, and I see that behavior played out in my church to some degree, with a coating of “midwestern nice”. But especially among the homeschool families (at least half our church) this is a huge deal. Our church (perhaps out of ignorance and a desire to be faithful to God’s word) bought and has used the AIG Sunday school curriculum quite a few years ago. Every lesson is tied one way or another to YEC a la AIG. It’s not taught overtly from the pulpit, but it’s in so many other places. While I don’t believe at all that our church is behaving like a cult, the philosophy of AIG has infultrated the congregation, and in a self-governed church, that means it’s everywhere, even if the pastors aren’t preaching it.
This is scary. But I think it also potentially comes with a silver lining. At least if it’s ‘easy-in’ then perhaps it can also in some ways be easy(-ier) out. At least there aren’t travel expenses or physical extraction involved. But the requisite mental extraction may be a bit harder since it is now the person’s own volition (or so they feel) that draws them to their tribal membership. At least the antidotes (reality and persistent curiosity) are also only just several clicks away. Hence the conditioning of the conditioners against heresy-tainted sources … ‘fake news’ … etc. And another difficulty to overcome is that falsehoods make a large enough splash everywhere around the internet that it is probably much easier to find your way into questionable content than to reputable content.