You have that backwards. Enoch was written after Genesis.
Bill you didn’t answer my questions???
For the last time I nor Firestone claim that this was a global flood but a global cataclysm. You said that these cataclysm happen standardly. What global cataclysm (definition: a large scale and violent event in the natural world) have occurred of this magnitude in the last 10,000 years?
What do you think that the consequences of this impact would have specifically been?
You said that this event could not have been remembered by people through the ages. Do you think that people 12,000 years ago were just a bunch of ignorant savages? Who built Gobekli Tepe?
The Noah story is linked with the fall of the Sons of God. Who were the Sons of God? What are they remembering happening?
First you said,
Then you said,
Make up your mind.
You are changing the goal posts. You said initially.
No qualification to only the last 10,000 years. My reply was in the entire history of the earth cataclysms are a normal part of the geologic history. In geologic history 10,000 years is a blink of the eye. And who are these people that have supposedly said there have been no global cataclysms, using your definition?
On a global scale, climate changes.
That is for 10,000 years remember?
Since it appears to pre-date the appearance of cities it would appear that it was constructed by hunter-gathers.
You are assuming that this is journalistic history. I follow more in the lines of Michael Heiser’s take in his “The Unseen Realm”. The story was added as a polemic against Mesopotamian religion after the exile and doesn’t record actual history.
Bill-How long have we heard from people that there was no global cataclysm in arguing against the Noah story. Ok here it is. You acknowledge the point is that there has not been anything nearly the magnitude of this catastrophe in the last 10,000 years. Nothing close to this magnitude. This was a big deal that humankind would remember through the generations. It’s more than a flood but it’s effects are felt by most people of the world at the time.
. As said before there are dramatic short term consequences and no doubt as you mention the longer term especially climatic effects.
- The impact generates tsunami’s of an incredible magnitude possibly hundreds of feet tall that would have devastated European, Scandinavian, eastern North American, Caribbean, North and western African and even north eastern South American and possibly into Pacific Ocean coastlines for tens and possibly hundreds of miles. The impact also will throw billions of tons of rock and ice and water in the atmosphere. Some of the debris will fall back as rebound meteorites igniting fires in susceptible regions. The enormous amounts of water injected into the atmosphere would create incredible storms and rainfall.
- The meteor creates an airburst that has been said to be the equivalent of all the nuclear weapons in the world. We know from the Tunguska blast that the concussive energy that this could cause enormous damage and in itself would create another Tsunami apart from the seismic impact.
- The impact would trigger earthquakes and landslides which in turn could trigger more tsunamis. Some have speculated that the earth would shake and shudder on its axis. This physics of this effect can easily be investigated. We know that the Fukushima earthquake effected the rotation slightly. This was much bigger.
- There would be a “Nuclear winter” of dust and debris blocking sunlight and killing plants particularly in the northern hemisphere and causing a substantial immediate cooling.
What is the relevance that the builders of Gobekli Tepe are hunter gathers and not from a city? You had said that this event could not be recorded through time yet the builders of Gobekli Tepe are clearly a sophisticated culture watching and recording the movement of the heavens at this time and we see similar megalithic structures in later megalithic societies such as Nevalı Çori. . People were watching the heavens and passing that down onto the generations.
Wow I am a big fan of Heiser and that is not his interpretation of the Sons of God as some made up story. Heiser points out that the Book of Enoch explains the Fall of the Sons of a God in Genesis. Heiser equates the Sons of God in the Book of Enoch with The Mesopotamian Apkallu such as Gilgamesh. The Apkallu before the flood are divine “Gods “but afterwards the Sons of God are destroyed but some of their hybrid prodigy remain “Nephilim”. Heiser believes that the Mesopotamians held the Apkallu and their beliefs in high regard but the Hebrews thought the opposite and that the Apkallu (Sons of God) had rebelled and fallen and wanted to build their own nations taking wives from the daughters of man and had taught man the arts of war, celestial knowledge, metallurgy, and other technologies that the Hebrew authors of the book of Enoch considered disastrous and a corruption of humankind.
Watch the video from Heiser.
I don’t think that any of these myths from the Bible or Mesopotamia exactly follow the events and history that occurred. However, they give a rough outline of events as interpreted over the ages.
The only argument against the Noah story is there is zero evidence for a global flood that covered the highest mountains and lasted for a year. This does not mean that a cataclysm of a different type, which is what you appear to be arguing for, did not occur.
What exactly would people who did not live near the impact actually remember? They had no measurement devices or ways to keep records. So while the winter would be colder they have no any way to quantify that. If the winter lasted for a longer period of time exactly how could they tell with no records of previous winters. I can tell you to the hundredth of an inch how much rain fell last night in my back yard and record that information for all time.
I might be remembering wrong but I thought you said it wasn’t built by hunter gathers.
I simply asked you how this event was passed down for 10,000 years (500 generations give or take) before the invention of writing. So far you haven’t answered that question.
The book is at home but I will try to remember to get the page number for the source of my statement.
Edit to add:
From page 107
Heiser makes it clear, at least to me, that he believes this was written after the exile by Hebrew scribes and was based on the Mesopotamian myths they had learned while in exile.
So now Noah’s flood is just a myth? Since it doesn’t match the history of the impact in terms of the dating and global impact what makes you think it was the impact that was the source for the flood myth? And if it is just the source for a myth why is it important to you?
I think a Heiser is clear in his video and we agree that the Book of Enoch is based on and correlates with the earlier Mesopotamians story. History can turn into myths and legends likely distorted over time but can contain truths. Enoch is not a dismissal of the Mesopotamians history or religion it’s a dismissal of the Mesopotamian Gods (Apkallu). The Apkallu (Sons of God) are viewed favorably by the Mesopotamians as divine gods teaching the ways of civilization but by the Hebrews as evil fallen angels that wanted to defy God building their own kingdoms and were then destroyed by the cataclysm. It is important Biblically that both the Books of Enoch and the Book of Giants are both found at Qumran supporting that the Essenes very much believed this narrative of events. The Essenes believed in the Sons of Light battling the Sons of Darkness.
This cataclysm was a great defining event in human history. The plant killing nuclear winter and then the Younger Dryas ice age abrupt climate change would have been devastating for all northern hemisphere human populations requiring survival adaptation. The cataclysm generated tsunamis would have wiped out all Atlantic and perhaps some Mediterranean rim coastal settlements. The region of Gobekli Tepe is important. The archeology of this site shows an advanced culture resetting and reestablishing after the cataclysmic destruction. It would seem that this more advanced culture was helping or perhaps recruiting the local Paleolithic hunter gatherers and also teaching them to survive into a new cultural structure. Genetic studies have shown that all domesticated wheat is derived from wild einkorn found nearby Gobekli Tepe at about this time. The area is filled with neolithic settlements dating to this age and down through time. Genetic studies show that these proliferative Anatolian neolithic farmers then advanced into Europe spreading their agricultural technology and even spiritual beliefs while mixing probably more or less peacefully with the local European hunter gather populations starting about 8000 years ago.
Perhaps he meant that this is what gave rise to what was reported as the biblical flood, but that of course the scale of the flood was exaggerated?
Cue the theme music for “Chariots of the Gods”. And what happened to all of the populations there weren’t impacted by the cataclysm such as those that lived in the interior or in the southern hemisphere?
There have been 11 regions around the world where it appears agriculture was developed. For example in China as far back as 11,500 BCE. The Levant was important for the spread of agriculture into Europe but it was far from the only source of the knowledge needed to cultivate plants and domesticate animals.
Sometimes Flood enthusiasts claim that a great deal of technology was lost due to the flood. But they can’t specify what was lost.
Scott seems dead set on claiming a meteor impact 10,000 years ago was the source of the myth that became the story of Noah’s flood all the while ignoring the many regional floods that would be more likely candidates for a flood story.
I think someone should ask Ross MacPhee why he doesn’t mention the Greenland Hiawatha impact crater in his recent talk? He knew about it as the papers were released well before his talk. In fairness, he may have been reticent to discuss it as it has not been definitively dated but all evidence points to the Younger Dryas period. I would have thought he would have mentioned the impact crater at least with qualification as it definitely points to the impact being the primary cause of the megafauna extinctions in North America. It is such as problem to publish a trade book and then new data comes out making the book out of date.
Bill . Are you denying the meteor impacts effects? What specific regional flood do you think fits with the Noah story? A regional flood really doesn’t fit well and they are just regional whereas of course the Noah event is described bigger than that. Here we have a truly global cataclysm that would have had immense catastrophic destructive effects people even then would know a really bad earth event like this compared to just a little regional flood. This meteor impact had a series of effects not just a flood or tsunami as I described and that better correlate with mesopatamian and enoch descriptions of the earth shaking and tilting and a darkness blocking the sun. It’s not just a regional flood. Btw this is not my theory, this has been advanced by a number of researchers including Firestone and West.
No. I have said several times I would expect global climate change.
This has been discussed in other threads but basically in the ANE archaeologists have identified several cities that were destroyed by local flooding with datings that are not that long before Mesopotamian flood stories were first recorded. You also have the possibility of the filling of the Black Sea as the source for the story.
Actually if you look at the story in Hebrew it does.
Which is the problem. If it happened as described then it didn’t happen.
How would they know it was a global event? They didn’t know what was happening 100 miles away much less thousands of miles away. And a flood that totally destroys your town and all of the surrounding country side wouldn’t be considered “little”. Also it happened in the recent past so there is no problem with people remembering what happened. Can you imagine the children asking, “Grandpa tell us the story of the flood that wiped out your flock again.”? As opposed to passing down a memory of an event for 10,000 years.
Bill. Just last year People on this same site had denied the evidence that there was an impact cataclysm. Where are they now? This is a hot subject now and More research is going into the meteor impacts consequences. The old paradigm of a regional flood and timeline of civilizations development is done . What’s it take to consider a huge cataclysm? Why do you ignore the other consequences of this impact including cataclysmic tsunami all along the Atlantic coastlines (maybe even pacific coastlines) cataclysmic earthquakes all around the planet, the planet would have shook and wobbled in its orbit with to be determined consequences and a sun blocking cloud wiping out plant life. This is not just climate change.
All Atlantic coastline people would have been wiped out by tsunamis (floods) and shock waves and the remains of their culture are now 400 feet or more under water. Then as now there were more technically advanced people and others not so advanced . Consider how would we cope if all our cities were destroyed and just a small number of people remain with very specialized knowledge and little survival skills in a damaged world. Amazingly people got around back then and some probably traveled hundreds of miles over the year. They were not sedentary. Some hunter gatherer cultures travel hundreds of miles. Why do you ignore the evidence from Gobekli Tepe? Clearly Gobekli Tepe represents an advanced culture that likely would have been the seed of future civilizations and passed their knowledge of this event down through time. Gobekli Tepe is Remarkable for its similarities to Stonehenge and other stone circles.
So we have a major cataclysm and archeological evidence for a mixing of an advanced culture (fallen Sons of God, Apkallu) and a less advanced culture (daughters of man) about 12000 years ago this correlates with the Bible narrative, the Book of Enoch and the Mesopotamian myths. These other floods sites you mention don’t add up. They are regional events and the archeology doesn’t support those sites.
I must have missed that. Can you point me to this denial?
Not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you talking about the interpretation of Genesis 6?
Tsunamis are catastrophic for people that live on islands as the impact is limited to the coastline. For people living on a continent it is much less severe as the vast majority live far from a coast. And given that tsunami dissipate as they travel I would have to see an accurate simulation of the event before I could agree with any impact in the pacific.
And any of those technically advanced people who didn’t live on a coast would have survived just fine. So what else happened to them?
Gobekli Tepe is only one example. There are many others scattered over the globe. Again it might be important for the history of humans in Europe it doesn’t explain the history of humans around the world.
Only when you really twist the Bible to make it fit.
Why? They happen in the region in a time frame that they would be remembered. Other than they don’t fit your pet theory is there any other reason to exclude them? The archaeology identifies the cities and when they were destroyed by flood. Do you have any sources that show this interpretation is incorrect?
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