You are so funny. Context. In the context of this discussion, we seems we are looking at the text as a historical or an origins story document, and it is obviously written by, about, and from the perspective of the Jewish people. Does it have meaning beyond that? Sure. But from their perspective, the whole world consisted of their region and what they knew of it.
The Bible presents universal truths, but they were communicated to a particular people in a particular place and time, with a particular culture. Part of that communication always included the call to be a light to the rest of the world. Yet God’s approach was curiously evolutionary, gradually building the information available through the process of revelation. There are interpretations of Genesis 1-3 that see them as describing the preparation of the Holy Land rather than being intended to describe the entire earth. I am not personally convinced that these chapters are strictly local in their focus, but The Manifold Beauty of Genesis 1 (The Manifold Beauty of Genesis One | Kregel ) brings out, among several other factors, the symbolic significance of the land in Genesis 1 and how it ties into themes throughout the rest of Scripture.
As to other religions and cultures, there are two extremes that are popular but contrary to the biblical message. One is an isolationism that claims that everything not from the Bible is bad. But God has made a good creation and given gifts to all people. Also, God’s law is not a set of arbitrary tests of loyalty; it is what is good for us. It doesn’t take all that much sense to figure out that “do not kill”, “do not steal”, etc. are good ideas for a functional society, for example. Likewise, anyone can examine creation and draw valid scientific conclusions if they rely on the evidence and not on what they want to be true. The reverse error is to claim that all other positions are just as good. The Bible is quite clear that Jesus is the only way of salvation; however, there are many possible ways to Jesus. If someone insists on trusting what they achieve, and refuses to accept the work of Jesus, then they are not saved, just as someone who refuses to accept a parachute and trusts in their own ability to jump out of an airplane is in trouble. Given the emphasis on God’s justice, we can be confident that everyone is treated fairly; the traditional theological formulations that I am familiar with state that God can reach those who do not have an ordinary human opportunity for faith (such as those dying in infancy or having severe mental restrictions). C. S. Lewis’s The Last Battle envisions a similar opportunity for one raised in a different religion, as but one of many examples of speculation on the topic. That should not create complacency about missions; it would be better for people to have as good a grasp as possible of the truth. But it does somewhat address complaining about others being left out.
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Moses wrote to be understood, and if by “heavens and earth,” he meant “time, space, energy and matter,” like Hugh Ross teaches,
nobody would’ve understood for over 3,000 years! And then just cosmologists!
Moses did not speak of the original creation of all things–only of a local area of land and the heavens where the birds fly, “The heavens and the earth,” and is only a “summary statement,” shown by the fact that God is not said to speak in Genesis 1:1.
The deep itself was eternal in ancient cosmology. It didnt have any boundaries as far as anyone knows. Not that the Biblical authors were thinking of the subject as modern people do. The spirit hovering may also be thought of as God not yet engaging in, creating (bara-ing) or resting in His temple, heaven and earth.
I’ve found this video helpful on the subject:
It is more than that – it is not just a request to help nor a suggestion to improve a relationship that is beyond broken. Jesus asks us to be obedient, and the Great Commission is a command. Peace Child1 and End of the Spear2 are good books about missions to people who have more than lost their way and would not have found God otherwise.
Just so we’re clear, Richard, you’re making an argument, I’m raising objections to your argument. There is a material difference.
If you would prefer that your arguments were not critiqued I’d suggest not posting them on public forums.
Uh… you are mate.
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Agreed. It’s a kingly declaration, right? “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me, therefore go…” That’s kingly language.
Paul captures this same idea, I think, in 2 Corinthians 5:20-21:
We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
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think you are confusing theology with philosophy. They have similar themes but different goals and dynamics
Richard
I do agree with the fact that Jesus tells us to speak up, “commands” if you want to use that term. However, what I am trying to get across is that Jesus does not restrict Himself by asking/telling us to speak up. And what this means to me is that I need to be sure that I speak in Christ’s name, with as close to Christ-like love as I can muster, whenever I talk with anyone who doesn’t know about Him.
For me, that means I must acknowledge to myself, before speaking, that I do not know everything about Jesus, and that I do not know how Jesus will judge any other human. And, since I do not know how Jesus will judge the person to whom I am speaking, I must be sure not to speak judgementally at him or her.
In every other O.T. place, the deep has a bottom, as it does here, shown by the fact that its bottom was seen and became dry when the water was “gathered into one place” (Gen. 1:9). The “great deep” (rav tehom), that had fountains opened during Noah’s Flood ( Gen. 7:11), never is elsewhere said to refer to the ocean! In the only other time it refers to a place, Amos 7:4 says, “Thus Yahweh showed me, and behold, Yahweh was calling to contend by fire, and it consumed the great deep (rav tehom) and began to consume the farm land.” The word translated, “fountains,” (magyahn), in Genesis 7:11 and 8:2, appears 23 other times in the O.T. and “water” is the only substance associated with it. Isaiah 30:33 speaks of “a stream of fire and brimstone.” No such stream is spoken of in conjunction with Noah’s Flood. So to say the vast majority of Earth’s volcanism happened during Noah’s Flood, is based on a non-Biblical assumption. (see p.63 in my: BEFORE GENESIS)
I did not say that any of the planet was created by anyone other than God. My only point is that Genesis One is only concerned with a local area. And is about a restoration/arraying/revealing!
I’ve always heard it being argued that genesis 1 was not localized but global and that genesis 2 was the localized aspect.
Hi Jim, this is a good point however, theologically is it deeply flawed.
You are forgetting that the overwhelming theme of the Bible is about “God’s People”…His creation.
Israel was simply the people who were given the charge to preach the kingdom to the rest of the world. Circumcision had an interesting role in this, people (EDIT “men”) could join Gods people (the Israelites) if they believed and were circumcised. That was a practical demonstration of commitment to the faith.
When Christ gave the apostles the charge to take the gospel to the Gentiles, it was at this point that the scepter (if you like) has been given to those outside of the Israelite camp {Gentiles) to preach the gospel to the rest of the world. This is what and why the Bible in the later stages of the New Testament applies the term spiritual Isarel to those who “Keep the commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus” in Revelation 14:12
The big picture of the Bible is about restoration of Gods entire creation back to Himself…to its former glory before sin corrupted it.
Can I just make a historical correction here…this is not the earliest venture into that region for Christianity. For example, The SDA Church had an individual move into the region far earlier than that and he is well known in Aviation circles, flew all over the Papua New Guinea region spreading the gospel and helping the locals with all sorts of aid, and I knew him personally. Len Barnard ESDA | Barnard, Leonard Henry (1919–2015) and Mavis Catherine (Parker) (1917–2005); later Noela (Shinners)
The family did not remain in New Zealand for long, however. Len accepted a position with the Public Health Department in New Guinea and the family moved to Bogia, 144 kilometers west of Madang.14
Denominational Service
While in Bogia, Len was asked to pioneer the establishment of a leper colony at Hatzfeldthaven on the coast.15 For various reasons, this did not occur at that time so he instead was asked to establish another such colony in the Highlands. He re-entered denominational service in October 1948.16
Len was by no means the only pioneer in the region but he was a very notable one and a truly great Christian man and a large number of current airstrips used in the highlands are there because of his pioneering work.
Yes! Until rather recently, almost all scholars thought “the heavens” in 1:1 referred to the Universe, and earth meant our planet. But the accumulation of knowledge concerning the Hebrew language has drastically changed that. In fact, the arguments that state the “heavens and the earth,” weren’t local, are easily shown to be full of problems. Hugh Ross thinks, “the heavens and the earth” are a compound referring to “time, space, energy and mass.” If true, it would mean nobody understood Moses for over 3,000 years; and then only cosmologists comprehended what he meant. The “heavens” is the same word used for where the birds fly (1:20), and the “earth” is the same word used for the “dry land” that appeared when the water was “gathered into one place” (1:9-10). Noah’s Flood and the 1:2 flood, for myraids of reasons, had to be local. ( see my book: BEFORE GENESIS). Neither CMI nor Ross, has an account of the creation of the planet Earth in Genesis One, although they believe it was created during that time. AIG, aware of the problem, contends “earth” in 1:1 refers to the planet, whereas “heavens” refers to the invisible particles the rest of the Universe would come to be made of. I contend, the reason the planet and the Universe of stars aren’t made in the Genesis 1:1 beginning is because they were made long BEFORE GENESIS.
I don’t believe Christians universally have ever thought at any time that Noah’s flood was local…the physical reality that one observes simply doesn’t support that view was ever the case. Sure those who had no observational experience outside their own regions may have had such ideas, however, man has had access to areas outside of local regions for far too long to have ever truly supported a local flood theory on a universal scale. It is only with the advent of TEism that this theory has been rehashed in order to try to find a way to make it fit with secular scientific claims. The really silly thing is, there are very good alternatives that remain consistent with the bible’s statements, however, the secularists will never agree to these because it requires an acceptance of the miracle of God.
The fact is, anyone with a poor education would read the flood story as being global…so i dont know how one can make the claim that early man would say its local given he had lower intelligence (or limited knowledge at the very least) according to Evolutionary models.
What we can say is that with the expansion of our ability to observe, we now realize the true scale of the global flood…not that it was local to only the region where the narrative was written. It’s the same as childlike thinking…as an individual matures, the child observations are still there, just that the true scale of the observation matures too. For example, as a child “wagon wheel” chocolates as just one example, always seemed huge…as an adult i realize they were as big as i remembered. That doesn’t mean the wagon wheel is not true, just that the scale of it is different. With the Biblical flood, our observational knowledge shows that geological examples of a flood are found dating to the same time period all over the globe.
So if anything, with modern observational abilities, the scale of the flood narrative is proven to be much larger rather than smaller which completely discredits the idea of a local flood.
Send me the pdf link and i will happily read it.
Might I add, i find it rather concerning when i read paragraph 2 sentence 4 of the preface in your book…how did you jump to that after the statements concerning Job just before it? You lead the reader into an apparent statement of fact in the preface which is not related to the story of Job you cite just before that statement.
“as far as the rest of the world knows, the rest of the physical universe is hostile”
I have to question you on this… it’s sneaky and misleading to the theologically naive reader?
God didn’t find a Goldilocks zone and then place us in it…he made the zone as well.
TEists continue to make the claim that an omnipotent, all-knowing and all-powerful God is restricted by Science. That is an absurd belief that is deeply deeply flawed and is at the very heart of the entire problem with TEism. Science is a manmade means of interpretation…it is our construct. It doese not rule over God…its a means of observing things God made…making mortal sense of something we simply cannot comprehend!
God isn’t bound by our construct called Science, He is immortal! You are making a claim that is simply wrong…its as wrong as saying a merciful loving God wont kill. He has done that plenty of times!
I mean honestly, can we use science to overcome the biblical statement that sinful men cannot look upon God and live? Now i ask you, in your opinion as a Christian…what is the solution to this dilemma?
I am not a perfect writer by any means! BEFORE GENESIS is available as an ebook, cheaply on Amazon etc.! My biggest weakness as a writer, is that instead of saying, “more and more about less and less,” like you’re supposed to, I tend to take you on a trip all over the place, though the subjects are loosely related. For example, in BEFORE GENESIS, I prove nobody goes to heaven at death–even Jesus spent three days and three nights in a paradise in “the heart of the earth.” (Matt. 12:40). The only way you can be in heaven, is if you’re raptured like Enoch and Elijah, or resurrected like Jesus. Okay back to whether or not Genesis One is only local or not!