Amen!
Should we look for the body of the old man who was executed? No.
It is a metaphor for an actual event.
Is that faith in a preterist Calvinist Pietist Trinitarian dogma or faith in a covenant Arminian Puritan Unitarian dogma? Neither. It is not about faith in any human dogma or any work of man, but about a faith in God and what He has done, is doing, and will do.
Mitchell, do you suppose Dr. Ehrman suffered from delusions or that he believed in magic? His born again experience lasted into his years at Princeton.
"For me, at the time, it felt like an enormous relief, a lifting of burden, a sense of connecting with the universe in a way I never had before. Very powerful!” “At that point Jesus became not only my Lord and Savior, but also my best friend and closest ally.” “Jesus was my model of self-giving love…” Ehrman
If you’d like, I will point you to thousands of people who will explain their experience with Jesus in the same fashion.
“And what you’ve given me today is worth more than I can pay” Dylan
What strikes me more and more as I get older is how few of us are willing to try. What can you lose if you sincerely seek Him? With all your strength? If He doesn’t exist, nothing. You didn’t lose a thing. If He is real, you’ll find what I and millions of others promise, will be the greatest thing you’ve ever known.
Why can’t I get words to express what I want to say? The word Amaze isn’t enough. It is used often to described cool stuff but that is not how I mean it.
Thread getting out of hand. I will keep it for a few days but since the op isnt addresed anymore and debates are starting it will be closed soon
No. I don’t make any suppositions about people I do not know.
My born again experience continues.
The God who is real? You lose nothing.
A fantasy God? You can lose touch with reality.
Don’t get me wrong… God who is real is also infinite, and thus our experiences of Him are likely to vary so much that it is often hard to see that they are all of one God. Does this mean that all conceptions of God are real and none are just fantasy? No. What then is this “fantasy God” I speak of? I am talking about things which contradict the reality we all experience – I am talking about making no effort at all to be logically consistent.
You just said you couldn’t judge Bart or anyone else you don’t know. But, isn’t that what you are doing in broad sweeps?
No, what I said was not about anybody.
I absolutely agree. His dying in a bloody, dirty, sweaty, torturous, inhumane, brutal execution despite his innocence, despite loving and forgiving us, is not magic.
Can we carry on our discussion privately? I would like that.
I don’t see the Bible as verses in an old book, but I really don’t think it should be weaponized and used to smite people you disagree with. Even though you believe you can’t possible be wrong about anything.
It is a weapon that God has given us. We are to use it to tear down every thought that exalts it’s self above the knowledge of God. But I quote it so that those who read it will understand the Good News about our salvation in Jesus and grow in the knowledge of God. I look to His Word and Spirit to lead me in the paths of righteousness, as we all must.
Who, what is your God, or The God, of whom you speak? (How do you like that grammatical effort?) How do you define him? Where is the source for your information about him?
You ask a lot …
what could the word “God” possibly refer to
contrasting 2 ways of looking at God
one attempt to answer a similar question
What I believe flows from the reasons I believe:
reasons to following the logic to conclusions
Everything.
Cool. You are a deep thinker, to say the least.
A couple thoughts came to my mind as I read through your comments.
I think He wants to be friends with us. Real, true blue, adult to adult, mature, equally giving and receiving friends.
It occurred to me how little discussions about God and Jesus mention what a good guy He was, how likeable He was and is, how much I enjoy hanging out with him, what a great pal He is. It seems as though the emphasis today is mostly on the intellectual, the scholarly, high brow stuff, the complex and sophisticated and so on.
Remember when the guys recognized Jesus? He told them, “Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some.” So they cast it there, and they were unable to haul it in because of the great number of fish. 7Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, “It is the Lord!” As soon as Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put on his outer garment (for he had removed it) and jumped into the sea. 8The other disciples came ashore in the boat. They dragged in the net full of fish, for they were not far from land, only about a hundred yards.…
Only among intellectual, scholarly, high brow people like those on this forum. An infinite God can be a lot like a mirror in this way. He is capable of responding to every aspect of us. So we tend to see the aspects of Him that we look for.
If I don’t keep a balance somehow, I lose sight of the essentials. For me, He can’t be so difficult to grasp, to relate to, and believe He can relate to me, that I don’t really have a friendship, a relationship with him anymore. When I first became aware of him personally, as my God and my friend, He took my loneliness away and I was and am so grateful for that. I loved/love him for that. If He becomes so challenging to comprehend that I don’t appreciate his friendship anymore, I’ve lost sight of what I started out loving him for in the first place and loving him is everything to me. I don’t want him to become merely “doctrinal” or words on paper or a “system” of some kind to understand. Obviously, I hope, I don’t believe in not studying. Like others have emphasized, it is all about his loving nature. Everything He does, everything He permits, though it is incomprehensible to me at times, flows from his heart of the deepest love for all of us.
I think higher criticism feeds into this kind of dilemma, although I believe HC is important. I think the fellas who gave us what we call the NT tried to present him as He really was and is. I think we can overdue analyzing the texts and lose Him along the way. If that happens, I suspect I’m reading too much in to every jot and tittle.
Indeed. I think this is particularly a problem with the attempts to construct arguments for His existence. I think they not only replace a faith in Him with a faith in the premises of those arguments – premises which are only too likely to be incorrect. I also always feel like they end up changing and limiting the God you relate to because what is argued for is inevitably different from the God you originally believed in. Besides I have a very definite sense and reasoning that the God I believe is simply not something you can objectively show exists. It is why the Bible puts so much emphasis on the necessity of faith. He is like other intangibles such as love, justice and goodness, which are just too big for such assurances. Our belief in them and the way that belief changes us is part of what makes them real to us – never something so far outside of ourselves that we can examine them in a microscope.
Usually when I am explaining or expounding on something about the Word of God, I will be adamant on those things I am certain of. But in reference to the original post I will only speak what my observations are.
When reading Psalms 22 completely and incorporating other words that the Spirit of God has spoken, it would seem to me, that the Father did forsake Jesus for a period of time.
Deut 21:22 If a man guilty of a capital offense is put to death and his body is hung on a tree, 23 you must not leave his body on the tree overnight. Be sure to bury him that same day, because anyone who is hung on a tree is under God’s curse.
Gal 3:10 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” Jesus became sin; He was cursed for our sake.
Ps 22:1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from he words of my groaning? 2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent. “ Jesus cried out but God did not answere him. But the Psalm continues with what is happening to him. He is a worm, scorned and despised by people, insults hurled at him, they divide his garments among themselves and cast lots for his clothing. The people say “He trusts in the LORD, let the LORD rescue Him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him. Through all this Jesus still trusts in the Father. Ps 22:19 But you, O Lord, be not far off; O my Strength, come quickly to help me. 20 Deliver my life from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs. 21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save me from the horns of the wild oxen.” Then he makes a declaration of what will happen because the Father will listen to his cry. Ps 22: 22 I will declare your name to my brothers; in the congregation I will praise you. 23 You who fear the Lord, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, honor him! Revere him, all you descendants of Israel! 24 For he has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.” At first God did forsake him (because he was cursed and had become sin) but with consistent calling out with trust in the Father, Jesus was heard and God’s face was no longer hidden from him but God listened to his cry for help.
In the statement, “For he has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one” it shows that the Father accepted the suffering of Jesus. Because Jesus himself did not sin but bore sin for mankind, the Father raised him up and seated him at His right hand. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice, sinless, thereby, able to become sin for us and to free us from the lordship of sin. Through this act, Jesus crushed the serpents head and delivered us from his dominion. Salvation by carrying us through death, a curse, judgment and separation from God, to resurrecting us and making us New Creations in himself.
So, the Father did forsake Jesus for a time but because of Jesus cries of faith to the Father, Heb 5:7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
So let us continue to trust the Father no matter what comes our way. Continue to worship Him, thank Him, obey Him, love Him, for He will hear the cries of those who call to Him and submit to Him. He is not far from those of a humble and meek spirit.
I don’t know either of those groups teachings.
It is trust in what the Father has now made clear what the prophets foretold, He has done this through the teachings and actions of Jesus and what the Spirit revealed to the apostles.
Holiness is the product of the Spirit of God living in the people of God. It is the result of the New Creation, being Born Again by the Spirit, the union with Jesus in his death to sin and resurrection to life. Holiness comes from the righteousness of God abiding in those who have true faith in Jesus and his cross.
The following scriptures will be helpful to understand better why I incorporate the Word of God into my posts. Actually incorporate is the wrong idea, it is the foundation of my thoughts.
2 Cor 10:3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
Eph 6:10- Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.
To know and understand what the Father has provided for us to keep us in the way of salvation, can only be a help and a blessing.
The problem is that saying sin is a habit does not solve any thing. People have many habits. Most are good, but some are not. You have not defined what is sin because you have not said why some habits are evil. For instance, why is telling the truth a good habit, while telling lies is not.
I would say that sin is more like addiction which involves people totally, body, mind, and spirit, which makes it very difficult to fight. I once discussed AA with an atheist. He disagreed with the idea of needing help from a “Higher Power.” I would say that it is not perfect, but it does work, because AA understands that we need motivation and support beyond ourselves.
Sin is based on selfishness. Genes are not selfish, but they are also not selfless. We must love God first and then love others as we love ourselves.
It was a short-hand reference to what I say 99% of the time which is that sin consists of self-destructive habits. Yes, people have both good and bad habits. Good habits improve us in many different ways by increasing our awareness, freedom, potential, ability, etc… Bad habits do the opposite. As a simple example that is very well known, there is the bad habit of procrastinating a task until the last moment versus the bad habit of working on the task right away. It is trivial to see how the bad habit is detrimental to awareness, freedom, potential, ability, etc… and how the good habit is a benefit to these things.
LOL The problem is that saying sin is an addiction does not solve…
If I am addicted to classical music does that make it a sin?
If I am addicted to chess does that make it a sin?
If I am addicted to going to church does that make it a sin?
…
It is not the addictive nature of a habit which makes it bad. After all does not Paul say “you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.” Romans 6:17
And some of the most destructive habits are habits of thought and few people would describe them as an addiction. Sure you can use that word but only by stretching it excessively while the word “habit” fits perfectly.
No. It is not. Sin can be driven by many different motivations (eg. pride, anger, despair,…) not just selfishness. Nor is the concern with self always wrong. An infant’s only proper concern is seeing to its own needs, it is incapable of anything else, and to think an infant is evil because it is selfish is downright grotesque. Furthermore, excessive obsession with selflessness can even be pathological and self-destructive. Thus equating evil and sin to selfishness is wrong.
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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