There are people who have dreamed things into existence? Wow.
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Yes, that does not fit to the modern concept of justice.
Because of this, I have switched from the ‘Jesus paid our sins’ wording to the principle that believers are ‘in Him’. If I am ‘in Christ’, then I died when Jesus died. The punishment did not hit someone innocent, it hit me (& other believers).
The other side of the coin is that my current life should also be ‘in Christ’, living not as I want but as Jesus Christ wants. You cannot get just one side, you either have to take or leave the whole coin.
This ‘in Christ’ thinking lifts another viewpoint to the fate of Judas Iscariot and others who feel they are at the point where they cannot be forgiven.
A literal view would just ask the question: was Judas ‘in Christ’?
A wider view acknowledges that our ways of picturing matters of salvation are not perfect and do not give an answer that solves all questions. Forgiveness and salvation are ultimately matters decided by God.
Yet, God does not make those decisions arbitrarily. If we surrender to what God has informed in the biblical scriptures, we can believe we have been forgiven and stick with faith to the promises of God. Otherwise, forgiveness is at best doubtful and our future is on a very soft bottom.
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Obviously.
You don’t think dreams exist?
Dreams exist. Therefore people have dreamed things into existence.
Just to clarify for those following along… I do not believe that the physical universe is just a dream in the mind of God but a real creation of something separate from God, otherwise it would be pan(en)theism.
But the differences between the universe just being a dream and being a real creation are these 2 things:
- The universe doesn’t require God to keep it in existence like an poor carpenter holding up his chairs and tables because they cannot stand on their own.
- logical coherence and consistency of a system based on fixed rules rather than just on what God happens to want at any particular moment.
Roymond tells us that things are real because they are not just electrical signals in our brain. But everything we experience are electrical signals in our brain. Our immediate experience of reality is just this subjective experience. Now I do believe there is good evidence for an objective reality independent of our experience but this is a product of abstraction and the evidence has to do with a consistency independent of what we may want or believe. And thus that consistency and independence is the difference between objective reality and what is only a dream.
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All valid points. I just take the view that there is a bigger picture in play…
Psalms 109:6-19
“Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand…”
And
1 Thessalonians 2:3
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”
All of the above verses we have considered may be directed at Judas, however they also put ultimate blame on Satan in type/antitype theology.
So i do not dissagree with your view there.
I diverge on point 1. That the universe doesnt need God to hold it together, however, generally agree with your comment there Mitchel. It was very thought provoking…thank you.
Odd, since the scripture says that God holds all things together.
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That Hebrews 1:3 passage could mean anything. And how you are using it is very far fetched and very much out of context.
The context is speaking of God’s communication to people through the prophets and Jesus. Thus the most natural meaning without injecting some preposterous magic into the text is it speaking of how the words from the prophets and Jesus keep human events and community in accord with His will and plans. To be sure, God is involved in events to keep things going according to His purpose by taking corrective actions to stop things when they go in an unproductive manner. After all, the examples of God doing precisely that in the Bible are many.
Misusing one passage like this to make an extravagant claim far beyond what the text actually say is bad theology. It most certainly does not say the universe requires God to keep the universe in existence as if God were incapable of actually creating anything which continues to exist like something which has any reality outside the mind of God.
P.S. adamjedgar was objecting and disagreeing on that point. It is an example of how taking what someone says out of context can make it say the complete opposite of what was intended.
Um, what? Try Colossians.
Rather it’s talking about Who Jesus is. It stands between the statements that through Jesus the world was created, and that of making propitiation for sins. Th verb links to both those, in regard to the first indicating that Jesus “bears”, i.e. rules and upholds, via “the word of His power”, all that exists, and in regard to the second that He has made the sacrifice (see LXX usage) for (all) sins. It’s a bridge between Jesus bearing the universe in existence and bearing it in redemption.
The two verses taken together say that He does; whether or not that is required is not stated. Either way, upholding all things and holding them together is stated as something He does, with the progression of thought the same in both passages: author of Creation, upholder/maintainer of Creation, then Redeemer/Reconciler of all things.
Now you’re importing a modern scientific worldview and forcing the text into it. It has nothing to do with what God is or is not capable of, it has to do with what the scriptures state that He actually does. You’re also importing a fixation on dreams, which have nothing to do with the text.
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St Roymond, i need to be quite direct in clarifying the purpose of your quoting there…
Are you agreeing with my divergence from the post i was responding too or, are you of the belief the quote is my statement of claim?
The reason why i ask is because you have quoted my point of divergence apparently indicating you think that is my belief.
Ill make this simple, using “normal language” so there is no confusion…
I do not agree that the universe exists without the direct and ongoing guidance and input of our Creator.
The reasons for my belief there are as follows:
- The bible makes it quite clear that without our Creators hand, Satan would destroy everything in an instant…i have no reason to believe that would not also extend beyond this planet (because it is by Gods hand that he is bound to this earth!)
- If the principles of science are the result of our Creator, and he ceases to exist, those principles also cease to exist.
God does not need the universe, but the universe definately needs God…because he is greater than the universe
Psalms 113
4The LORD is exalted over all the nations,
His glory above the heavens.
5Who is like the LORD our God,
the One enthroned on high?
6He humbles Himself to behold
the heavens and the earth.
I was just commenting on the statement without considering whose it was.
No, because dreams are not reality. Th difference has nothing to do with rational coherence, it has to do with what is verifiable by multiple witnesses. Many people have dreams that are rationally coherent, but that doesn’t make them real.
What, make real things? We call it the universe.
Did other people also experience it? Can they go and collect the things from your dream?
You’re basically saying that hallucinations are real.
Not unless what they dreamed can be examined by other witnesses as well as anyone capable of examining real objects.
You assign the human subconscious greater power than God!
Where in scripture do you find that? The apostles wrote that Christ sustains everything in existence; the prophet that the only thing that exists on its own is YHWH.
I don’t know where this dream fixation came from, but the way you apply it is more pagan than biblical.
Not true – if that’s all that exists, there could be no science. We experience everything through electrical signals in our brains, but that does not reduce reality to electrical signals. If everything is just electrical signals, then the only thing someone can actually know is that he himself exists – nothing more, which is why “Cogito, ergo sum” is ultimately a declaration of despair.
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