The Fall of Historical Adam, (Federal Head of man), impacts all of humanity to need Christ's Salvation

It is also quote common to cite what are considered to be authoritative sources.

Sin does not require law.

Again, the text does not say that. Stop adding to the text.

That’s not in the text at all!

A second time, the text does not say that.

You often harp about how to study the scriptures, but you ignore the first rule of interpreting any literature: don’t add in what isn’t there.

So.let me get this straight, given everything else that is said in the bible about satan, you believe that it was only his angels who sinned and were cast out of heaven?

2 peter 2

4For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell,a placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment

Yours is not a refutation of the point…

We know Peter was given direct revelation by Christ during his ministry. Its impossible to claim otherwise as Peter also tells us that!

Now back to my claim…the point is, if the law was given at Sinai, how did the angels sin in heaven before the fall of Adam and Eve in Genesis 3?

Its pretty obvious, they broke the law…thats what sin is

1 john 3.4

4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law

You keep pointing to these verses and these verses don’t say what you say they do.

As you like to say, can you support this with Scripture?

Since sin existed before the law it would be possible to sin without transgressing a law that doesn’t exist. After the law was given sin would also be a transgression of the law.

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Ony in as much as the Law is supposed to dictate what is or is not sin. The Law (Obedience) itself cannot save, as Paul spends most of Romans explainning. You cannot equate sin and the Law… You can obstentially obey the law and still sin.


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oh my St Roymond…how on earth do you manage to come up with that given the following…

1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law .

Im really struggling to understand where on earth some of you guys managed to purchase your theology and doctrines from…was it EBAY?

you are confusing how we are judged as saved peole with the standard by which all are judged.

please read Hebrews as it explains:.

Bible Hub › hebrews
Hebrews 4:16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

we may approach the throne with confience because we are clothed in Christs righteousness…thats how justification works. I suggest you carefully study the book of Romans to better understand this. The apostle Paul talks at great length about it throughout Romans.

The point is, Christ died so that we may be deemed sinnless…we are clothed in His righteousness…our debt paid in full.

It does not mean that we have not sinned because we are no longer under the law. Thats ridiculous.

you are playing around all over the place with this claim…its a confusing mess you have there.

To simplify:

Sin is trangression of the law
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God "Romans 3.23 (no exceptions)
through one man (Adam) we all are deemed guilty and will enter into judgement and through one man Christ, we may be saved.

we are judged only according to that which we know. God doesnt hold us accountable for knowledge which we do not have…thus i believe babies and very young children who have died will be saved. Dont ask me about God demanding king Saul wipe out the Ammorites including their babies…i cant answer that question, only God can.

As you seem to read Romans…read chapter 3:10-18

10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[b]
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[c]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[d]
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]

then Verse 20

20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

As with St Roymond, you are confusing the standard by which all are judged by with justification. You seem to think the second means there first no longer applies. That is clearly wrong…

Revelation 14:12
12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

You have no idea what Peter is talking about, do you?

I’ll give two hints: Genesis 6, Psalm 82.

You repeat the claim but fail to say where this claim is from.

No, that’s one thing sin is. According to Jesus sin is also preferring the darkness to the light. The Hebrew term means “miss the mark”, and so does one of the Greek words. James says it’s a failure to do what you know is right. The apostle tells us that whatever is not of faith is sin. Deuteronomy says that sin is rebellion against God. Indeed even a failure to do something when you didn’t know you should counts as sin!

No it is not. That applies only to the Jews. I am not under that Law.

Jesus sumarised the Law with

Love the Lord Your God with all your heart, soul and mind, and your neighbour as yourself.

Love is a principle and not a law. Laws can be broken or misconstrued, principles cannot.

Speed limits are designed to make driving safer, but they cannot account for the weather or traffic conditions. You can keep to the speed limit but still break the principle of safe driving…

The Pharisees tried to clarify the Law but ony succeeded in muddying the waters. If you live by the principle of Love you cannot sin. If you live by the Law you still can sin.


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I got a chuckle here because this reminded me of a place on a highway not more than half an hour from my house where there is a 45mph speed limit sign immediately – like ten yards – followed by a 30mph warning sign!


I’ve seen one better–a 40 mph warning sign less than ten yards after a 35 mph speed limit sign.

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I like how you put that. Very similar to what I remember from somewhere else (my paraphrase) … You can follow all ten of the commandments and still be a horrible husband, horrible parent, world-class jerk, etc. But you cannot follow the higher calling of love and deliberately continue to be any of those things.

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Only if you’re omniscient.

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“Deliberately” being the important word – you can still screw up without meaning to.


Scripture has no more right to tell me I must sin than it has to claim creation in 6 days


So you admit that you put yourself above scripture!

That’s an interesting way to dodge responding to my point that the only way that “follow[ing] the higher calling of love” will avoid sin is if you’re omniscient.

Scripture is of human origin. The amount of influence God has in it is highly debatable but it is clearly under human influence. It is not about being “above”, It is about distinguishing between human dogma and pure observation. There is a big difference between sin being enevitable and sin being compulsery.
I have free will. I disagree with Paul when he claims otherwise. Nothing compells me to sin.I can choose what actions I take within the limitations available.and no instinct will force me to autoatically choose evil or sin. That is fact. And if you wish to quote Scripture to tell me otherwise then Scripture is wrong. Just as the 6 day creation is wrong.

Scriptrue is neither God in wrtten form, or a god in its own write. (deliberate pun)


No, that’s your personal view.

Again you put yourself above scripture.

If you can make that statement then you don’t understand the first Creation story.

But it is inspired, and the apostle tells us that it was written because God moved holy men to write it. The base assumption must therefor be that if you disagree with scripture, it is scripture that is correct.

That is your belief, it is not Scripture

Inspired does not mean dictated. I can be moved to write a sermon but that does not make it God’s precise words. The words are mne. And they include my understanding. Pauls writing included his beleifs about God directly influencing him and hs people. Paul beleived that God actually madde Israel defiant and rebellious. Judaism does not beleive in complete free will as @Dale (RIP) beleved also.

You can choose to accept every fact an ddoctrine stated or implied in Scripture or you can read it a it as intened. Scriptrue is the start of faith, it is not the be all and end all…My relationship with God spans most of my 65 years. During that time I have not closed my eyes and ears to what the world is actually about, and the people on it. Experiencce trunps the written word every time. There are evil people who perpetualy sin, but it is their choice, they are not being puppeted by either God or the Devil. And there are people who live good lives, maybe not perfect, but they are not depreaved sinners, even if they are not Christians…And I have met devout Christians who do more evil in the world than Hitler did, becuae of their fanaticism and insistance on “what the Bible says”.
The Bible is abused. It is qoted inaccurately and poorley. And you can prove just abbout anything you want by quotug passages of Scripture.
Acoordingto Scripture homosexuality is wrong, but society had learned that some peopple are born different. Many Christians would have them “healed” and have go to great lengths to do so, but… They appear to have been made that way. Just as peole are born with disbilities that cannot be just “cured”…Christianity can turn its back on reality and try and live idealism, but in the end reality is all that we have.
At the end of the day our beleifs are between us and God. We cannot impose them onto society and claim “We are fallen”. That is not our place. So instead of laying down the law, and judging society by Scripture, our job is to live the best we can and encourage others to do likewise.
Etrenity? That is squarely in God’s hands and nothing you or i can do will chqnge it.


That view makes every person his or her own Pope – it puts personal feelings above what the church determined is authoritative.

That’s because many people address it exactly the way you do: they think that their personal views outweigh the writings of teachers that the Holy Spirit appointed for the church. Your approach is exactly why there are tens of thousands of denominations and sects today instead of a unified church.

Ooh a CHristian meglamaniac! The church shold tke over the world! One Chrurch, One Faith, One Lord, One way of thinking!

er, who is the Pope? I am not Catholic. The Pope is appointed by men not God.

Oh I wish they did! But they do not. They (some) place it one step below God Himself, which may or may not be the intention, but…
They assume they know what it means! And that there is only one interpretation possible… And they have it!
But the main fault is to think that the Bible can be cut into little chunks called verses and each verse stands alone.

God could have made us all think the same, but He did not. Remember that the next time someone disagrees with you.

I think that is an exaggeration, but long may it be so. I worship in the way that is most comfortable for me. I cannot worship under the restraint of fixed liturgy and rote. I sing the type of music that I enjoy. It takes a certain type to sing plainsong…Denominations serve the variety of people, they are not in competition with each other. There is still One Church, One Faith, and One Lord, but a myriad of ways to worship and Understand Him. The Church is only fractured when people like you get dogmatic.