The Fall of Historical Adam, (Federal Head of man), impacts all of humanity to need Christ's Salvation

Faith & Science Conversation
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107

Exactly. There are actually a couple of things going on with the “X day” refrain that the YEC view throws away. Both are a matter of contrast to the Egyptian creation story the outline of which the Genesis account follows: the first is that the Egyptian version had everything happening in just one day, the second is that in the Egyptian view nighttime was an enemy of order that the gods had to fight every single night in order to keep the world in existence. “Evening . . . and morning” are the boundaries of the night, and by using night to mark the days the Genesis writer is declaring that the Egyptians are totally wrong, that night isn’t an enemy, it’s just another tool YHWH-Elohim created to serve Him. And the repetition of days serves to declare that to YHWH-Elohim the steady march of time is important.

And in one of the literary forms of the first Creation account, the “Xth day” structure is there as a way to organize the story and make it easier to remember. Related to this, it should be kept in mind that the numbering does not indicate a succession of days; it isn’t “the second day”, “the third day”, etc., it’s “a second day”, “a third day”. That reminds me of something I don’t think I’ve mentioned in this thread, the fact that many ancient commentators called these “divine days” because up until the sixth day there weren’t any humans who could mark time; I missed listing that one in the post where I noted a number of ways that faithful Christians have read the opening Creation account down through the ages.

Yes. Scholars many centuries ago recognized that the numbering of angels and seals and such in John’s Apocalypse weren’t meant sequentially but thematically; even in the second and third centuries Christians recognized that John’s writing was describing what they were living through.

Nicely put!

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108

Okay, lets take this to the conclusion.

We have 1000 years or so for animals to exist before humanity, giving Dinosaurs enough tie to come and go except there was no death before Adam? Hmm.

.Carnivores?
Bacteria?
Anything that lives on decaying or dying material?
Germination?
Births?

How does/did this world exist without death?

And if Adam caused it, where do all the carnivorous animals, plants and bugs come from?

Technically a herbivore is killing the plant it eats. Adam and Eve were allowed to eat any fruit, which is OK, I guess, because it doesn’t kill the tree, but…

Tell me, does any YEC actually think things through?

Richard

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109

Your response has nothing to do with my article. If you’ve read the article with comprehension, you know that it is not about commonalities between species but about the genetic differences between species. So please try again: What models that don’t include common descent would predict the observed patterns?

It is clear that the entirety of your decades-long study of evolution has consisted of reading creationist attacks on evolution. I’ve read the articles by Jeffrey Tomkins that made the 70% claim. Have you ever read the study that measured the difference at 1%(*)? Do you have the expert knowledge of sequencing, genome assembly, and comparative genomics required to judge between them? I do, and I’d be happy to explain to you some of the errors Tomkins made. Do you want to learn about them?

(*) Not exactly what the study said, in fact.

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110

The age is inferred from direct measurements and measured fundamental constants which are calibrated from measurements which if wrong would prevent atoms from existing. Those assumptions allow for having a defined answer and are scientifically verifiable.

Can you give an example of a living fossil that is highly specialized for an environment that has ceased to exist? All of the examples that I am aware of like extreme or variable environments (intertidal, intermittently dry ponds, deserts), live in a lot of places, are generalists in feeding, etc. And the other issue is that even if the average time for a genus to last is short, there are going to be some extreme exceptions. And they are just that: unusual exceptions; Murchisonellidae is one of only four extant families that I can quickly find that are known from the Carboniferous.

What is far more telling is that extinction rate correlates well with stratigraphy–the original definitions of Pleistocene, Pliocene, Miocene, Oligocene, Eocene, and Paleocene were based on the extinction rates of mollusks in European deposits of each layer. And as a further example, the extinction rates of a few layers nearer to me are as follows:

Wando Formation: 1%
Bermont Formation: 15%
upper Waccamaw Formation: 55%
lower Waccamaw Formation: 60%
Elizabethtown Beds: 70%
Duplin Formation: 80%
lower Goose Creek Limestone: 85%

Why should stratigraphy, biostratigraphy, extinction rates, and radiometric dating correlate that well if they are fundamentally wrong?

Exactly where they’ve been deposited in museums buried in museums. What exactly are the following if not transitional forms: Myllokunmingiidae, “ostracoderms”, Elpistostegidae, Eusthenopteron, Tiktaalik, Acanthostega, labyrinthodont amphibians, gorgonopsids, Archaeopteryx, Spinifulgur, Busycon auroraense, Melanella laevigata calkinsi, Pelycidion matthewsi/megalomastoma, etc., etc.

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111

Hi Ron,
The video of this fast talking just so story telling amounts to nothing more than hand waving.
What a conglomeration of deceptive babble that has clearly been designed to confuse unsuspecting people that evolution is a fact despite the empirical reality that at least 55 REAL living creatures of today are essentially the same morphology of their ancestors that are present in the Fossil geologic column that in some cases allegedly date at hundreds of millions of years. Living fossils are real and to say otherwise is yet another blatant untruth!

God Bless,
jon

112

Would you consider it reasonable for someone to take the approach of studying a translation and consulting experts (their writings or direct communication) for “this is the best that I can understand this” level of study?

Specifically, starting in the late 17th century and being quite confident of it by about the 1770s.

Or, on a smaller scale, problems arise when people assume that the words in the KJV mean the same thing today–earth in the sense used then would probably be closer to the Hebrew than typical modern understandings of the word “earth”.

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113

Yes, but they are rare, and

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114

Simply because they are all built within a deep time evolutionary worldview framework, that makes assumptions consistent with that worldview and callibrated to provide results that are in agreeance with each other. It’s that simple!!!

God Bless,
jon

115

(Articles on living-fossils)


A new star is born? Brittle star discovered—identical to Jurassic fossils!

A new brittle star has been discovered—but it’s identical to Jurassic fossils!
by Gavin Cox
](A new star is born?)


Ginkgo: a remarkable living fossil

With no evolutionary change over claimed hundreds of millions of years, and possessing a complex genome, the ginkgo is totally baffling to Darwinists
by Jerry Bergman
](Ginkgo: a remarkable living fossil) [

Coelacanth: The transitional fossil that wasn’t

The transitional fossil that wasn’t
by Jerry Bergman
](Coelacanth: transitional fossil?) [

The tapir

‘Primitive’? A ‘hodge-podge of leftovers’? Or something else?
by David Catchpoole
](Tapir) [

Baby fossil snake further frustrates evolution

A tiny snake “frozen in time” in amber belies its claimed 99 million year age
by Philip Bell
](Baby snake fossil defies evolution) [

Sulfur bacteria stasis—“The greatest absence of evolution ever reported”

“The greatest absence of evolution ever reported” is hailed as support for evolution.
by David Catchpoole
](https://creation.com/a/13509) [

Sea Pens

‘Extreme’ living fossils shout ‘after their kind’
by Don Batten
](https://creation.com/a/13219) [

Mighty mites stifle evolutionists

Evolutionists stopped in their tracks as amber find has them scratching their heads.
by Shane Cessna
](https://creation.com/a/13073) [

Sulfur-cycling bacteria 1.8 billion years old the same as today

1.8 billion years have allegedly gone by but these rapidly-reproducing bacteria haven’t changed in all that supposed time
by Michael Oard
](https://creation.com/a/12990) [

Meet ‘Mr Living Fossils’

A former evolutionist who has worked as a research biologist now has a museum that highlights creation.
by Carl Wieland
](https://creation.com/a/11531) [

Famous living fossil ‘link’ idea fizzles further

Famous living fossil ‘link’ idea fizzles further
by Carl Wieland
](https://creation.com/a/12554) [

Dinosaurs are almost certainly extinct

We have had decades to verify the many claims that dinosaurs are still alive today, but to date none of those have panned out.
by Robert W. Carter, Gary Bates, Jonathan Sarfati
(Dinosaurs are almost certainly extinct)

Previous

(Articles on living-fossils)


‘Surprising’ lizards in amber

Thirty-eight fossil lizards reckoned to be 20 million years old—so well-preserved you can see whether their eyes are open or shut.
by David Catchpoole
](‘Surprising’ lizards in amber) [

Sperm wail

The evolutionists’ cry that ostracod gametes are 17 million years old defies common sense.
by David Catchpoole
](Sperm wail) [

Turtles

These uniquely designed creatures continue to defy evolutionary explanation …
by Paula Weston
](Turtles) [

The mysterious giant squid

Despite scoffers over the years, the ‘legends’ and ‘stories’ about these creatures from seafarers are actually based on fact.
by Paula Weston and Carl Wieland
](The mysterious giant squid) [

Salamanders are ‘living fossils’!

How can something long known to be living, be dubbed a ‘living fossil’?
by David Catchpoole
](Salamanders are living fossils!) [

Gladiator—an ‘extinct’ insect is found alive

‘How often do you get to investigate a fossil that has come to life?’ asks one scientist. Good question.
by David Catchpoole
](Gladiator—an 'extinct' insect is found alive) [

Evolutionists can’t dodge ‘Living Fossils’

Things staying the same pose a problem evolution, which is about fantastic changes. See how evolutionists dodge the evidence.
by Don Batten
](Dodging living fossils) [

‘Living fossils’ enigma

Gingko trees, crocodiles, horseshoe crabs, coelacanth fish, tuatara lizards, Lingula lamp shells and Neopilina molluscs haven’t changed in at least a hundred million years. How come?
by David Catchpoole
](Living fossils enigma) [

Horsetails are ‘living fossils’!

Long familiar to keen gardeners, horsetails are ‘living fossils’, unchanged from their supposedly ‘prehistoric’ ancestors.
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Golden oldie

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by David Catchpoole
](Golden oldie) [

Living fossil ray riddle

A living Shovelnose Ray is almost identical to a ‘dinosaur era’ fossil ray, a living fossil, challenging both evolution and geological time.
](Living fossil ray) [

‘Lost world’ animals—found!

Cave drawings brought to life by exciting discoveries.
by Carl Wieland
]('Lost world' animals—found!)

Previous

(Articles on living-fossils)

[

Living fossils and ‘junk DNA’

Why do ‘living fossils’ and functions in ‘junk DNA’ present problems for evolution?
by Don Batten, Lita Cosner
](Living fossils erv function) [

Fossils in the wrong place?

Yes and no!
by Michael Oard
](Fossils wrong place) [

Living fossils: a powerful argument for creation

Dr Carl Werner discovered that the world’s museums contain fossils of many of today’s creatures, but found in ‘dinosaur’ rock. Why aren’t these fossils on display?
by Don Batten
](Werner living fossils) [

Amber needed water (and lots of it)

New research reveals a clue as to how aquatic organisms (e.g. barnacles, clams) became entombed in amber.
by David Catchpoole
](Amber needed water) [

The ‘Lazarus effect’: rodent ‘resurrection’!

Looking for something different? Try an Asian food market. You might be surprised …
by David Catchpoole
](The 'Lazarus effect': rodent 'resurrection'!) [

Horseshoe crabs invented themselves?

The latest discovery of a horseshoe crab fossil has evolutionists raving.
by David Catchpoole
](Horseshoe crabs invented themselves?) [

Fossil ant found alive!

Better watch where you walk … lest you tread on an ‘extinct’ ant!
by David Catchpoole
](Fossil ant found alive!) [

Correcting the headline: ‘Coelacanth’ yes; ‘Ancient’ no

Instead of ignoring news reports with an evolutionary ‘spin’, we can ‘de-evolutionise’ them for powerful use in outreach.
by David Catchpoole
](Correcting the headline: 'Coelacanth', yes; 'ancient', no) [

Evolutionary Stasis

Are scientists guilty of using language that serves to distort or disguise the facts?
by Philip Bell
](Evolutionary Stasis) [

‘Dinosaur fish’ lady dies

‘Dinosaur fish’ lady dies
by anon
](‘Dinosaur fish’ lady dies) [

Resurrected reef-dwellers?

Resurrected reef-dwellers?
by anon
](https://creation.com/a/16000)

Dr Joachim Scheven, Ph.D.

[

Aren’t 250 million year old live bacteria a bit much?

by Michael J. Oard
](Aren't 250 million year old live bacteria a bit much?) [

Ghostly shrimp challenges evolution!

](Ghostly shrimp challenges evolution!) [

‘Living fossils’

Living horseshoe crabs and Comptonia peregrina ferns are identical to their fossils, indicating no evolution.
by Joachim Scheven
](Living fossils: Comptonia & Limulus) [

‘Living fossils’

Liquidamber and Coelacanth
by Joachim Scheven
](Living fossils: Liquidamber & Coelacanth) [

Spot the difference

](Spot the difference! Fascinating living fossils) [

Bugs in brine

The Discovery of DNA in bacteria in ancient salt crystals shows they cannot be millions of years old.
by Don Batten
](Bugs in brine)

The Bible declares: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

[God Bless,
jon

116

Right, one could interpret it as picturing a “worldwide” flood, but that world has a different shape than ours. It’s much like when God gave Nebuchadnezzar a dream about “a tree at the center of the earth” that could be seen “to the ends of the whole earth” (Daniel 4). One could say that in the dream the tree was seen “worldwide,” but to say it was visible “globally” confuses the shape of the earth pictured by the dream.

Even when God communicates, as in that dream (see Daniel 4:24), God may accommodate a limited understanding of natural things.

2 Likes
117

They are unique living organisms that are clearly not transitional by any stretch of the imagination, despite the furious hand waving by evolutionists to the contrary.
Don’t you even think that it is extremely weird that we don’t find real transitional forms between the distinct species we see in the geologic column?
If evolution was a true mechanism used by God, then why don’t we see abundant evidence in the form of trillions upon trillions of transitional forms that document the alleged slow and gradual ascension of life on Earth from first cells through to man.
The reason why we don’t find trillions of transitional forms in the fossil record should be obvious to all truly enquiring minds given the enormous amount of well documented, catalogued fossils at our disposal in 2024.
The whole concept of transitional forms is a myth, evolution is a blatant falsity masquerading as science when it is obviously nothing of the sort. But of course another just so story has been invented to explain to the gullible why we don’t find the expected trillions of transitional forms in the fossil record that would have to have existed if evolution was actually a real mechanism. But it clearly isn’t hence, ZERO transitional forms exist, any statement otherwise is furious and desperate hand waving to cover up this glaring inconsistency that falsifies evolution theory right there. Clear as crystal except that the ever so strongly held religious dogma of many evolutionists that must at all costs, and despite the obvious evidence choose to retain their unwavering belief in evolution that in so doing prevents then from seeing the clearly obvious!

God Bless,
jon

118

It is telling that you do not provide scriptural references or scripture itself to support your assertion.
PLEASE , I would be grateful if either you or St Roymond could you provide more information as to exactly where in the Bible the words, or words to the effect and meaning of “water backed up against the bronze-hard dome that God had put over the Earth-disk” are written.

Many Thanks,
God Bless,
jon

119

So exactly where does the Bible state this?

Could you please indicate where you believe the following text is a false translation from the original Hebrew:
18 The water prevailed and increased greatly upon the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water.
19 The water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered.
20 The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered.
21 All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind;
22 of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.
23 Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark.
24 The water prevailed upon the earth one hundred and fifty days.

T^hanks,
God Bless,
jon

God Bless,
jon

120

Even creationists do not agree with you.

YEC advocate Tomkins argued that the similarity between Chimpanzee and human genomes was 70%.

ID advocate Richard Buggs, who at one time also suggested 70% similarity and was widely quoted in YEC literature, has revised his estimate to somewhere over 90%.. Note that Buggs has taken into consideration work by Steve Schaffner @glipsnort in his revision.

Creationist Todd Wood, who pioneered the YEC baraminology taxonomy, stated

The weight of the evidence still favors a >90% identity between the human and chimpanzee genomes.

Physical anthropologist Erica ( Gutsick Gibbon ) replicated Tomkins work and found a litany of mistakes. Creation Ministries International associate Robert Carter grudgingly agreed that Erika’s critique and DNA analysis was broadly correct.

Humans and chimpanzees are more genetically similar than many of the species that YEC considers to be members of the same Biblical kind. One that basis, it would be consistent to place chimpanzee’s and humans in the same kind. After all, no primate has been observed to give birth to anything other than a primate.

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121

Why aren’t they transitional?

We’ve only searched the tiniest fraction of the Earth’s sediments for fossils. T. rosae wasn’t found until a few years ago. How do you explain that? How do you explain the fact that new fossil species are found on a monthly basis?

Until you show how transitional fossils are a myth we will continue to point to the very real transitional fossils.

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122

The question Steve that I asked of you was:
" what examples do you offer in support of your belief in “ Common descent by natural processes ” that clearly show the type of greater information complexity increase that would be required if evolution was real"

Or put another way, what species do you believe changed into what species that are more complex having new structures, processes etc. that is, coded within their genomes that supports your assertion of common descent?

And I don’t mean within a Biblical kind where obviously natural selection can and does change individuals, within the genetic limits of their created Biblical kind, a cat remains within the Biblical cat kind, a dog within the Biblical dog kind, a horse within the Biblical equine kind etc…
Grand upward complexity evolution from primordial cell to man simply is not supported by the evidence that I have seen or read thus far.

Many Thanks,
God Bless,
jon

123

What assumptions cause multiple radiometric dating methods to agree with one another? For example:

image
image350×502 51.2 KB

That’s multiple parent/daughter isotope pairs that decay through different mechanisms, and yet the dates are within analytical error. How do you explain this? Just saying “assumptions” isn’t going to do it. You need to explain the physics and chemistry that would cause multiple methods to give the same date across different isotopes.

You also need to explain why we see a correlation between the ratio of parent and daughter isotopes in rocks and the fossil species above and below them in the geologic column. How does a flood sort non-avian dinosaurs so they are always below igneous rocks that have isotope ratios consistent with more than 65 million years of decay across multiple parent/daughter isotope pairs? Show us the physics and chemistry that explains this.

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124

Sure – but anyone who just copies and pastes an English translation and claims to have “studied” clearly hasn’t even done that.

True. That’s one reason I banned the KJV from my Bible studies – it’s no longer the same language. My favorite example is where the KJV says “they prevented him into Jerusalem”, which makes absolutely no sense in modern English.

1 Like
125

@moderators, it seems that the OP has turned this thread into an endless Gish gallop of reposted CMI articles, case in point is post 115, and there is little actual engagement.

126

You claim to have studied the Bible but you don’t even know what it says in Genesis 1?;

The world in Genesis 1 is this:

NIV-FaithLife-Illustrated-Bible-Cosmology
NIV-FaithLife-Illustrated-Bible-Cosmology1875×2008 172 KB

That’s what the Hebrew describes. It doesn’t change its description – ever. It tells us there’s a dome that’s as hard as brass – a “firmament” – over the Earth. There’s just one landmass – it says God gathered the waters into one place and the dry land emerge, so with the waters all in one place there can only be one land mass. Thus if the water covered the mountains then it backed up against that dome.

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