The Fall in Evolution

[heddle (David Heddle)]

@ProDeo

so “you will surely die” makes perfect sense to me,

But it reads more than what you quoted. It reads: “on that day you will surely die.” It is the on that day part that makes the interpretation of physical death problematic and makes the interpretation of spiritual death more plausible, in my opinion.

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

Just got caught up and found myself most in agreement with these points:

@cosmicscotus

Gen 3 is about human refusal to hear the inner voice of the Spirit and instead go after what we want and pleases us, that then has many consequences.

I do not see a literal historical Fall in the story of evolution, but instead there is an actual failure to grow into the true life of our Intended Humanity in divine communion. We are estranged from our divinely intended nature, and this is what Genesis 3 shows, in what I think is parable rather than actual historical.

@mitchellmckain

THIS is a good world – a paradise! There is nothing wrong with the world or the universe. The only problem here is us people in it. We are the problem and accepting that is the essence of the gospel.

@heddle

more or less moot. We are in rebellion and sining on our own from day 1.

@ProDeo

In Genesis God created a very good world [1:27]

Actually the bible does not say that everything God created was good. Even in the garden before the serpent and the fall we are told something is not good, namely that man was alone. (Gen 2:18)

@ProDeo

We also know that death is the result of…sin.

Maybe, maybe not. It is quite consistent with the biblical text that spiritual death (and a consequence loss of eternal life ) is the consequence of sin. That might explain why God tells Adam on the day he eats from the tree he will surely die, (not “start the process of dying”, but die) yet after eating Adam breaths another 900+ years. Perhaps Adam did die on the day he ate, but it was a spiritual death. If that is the case, there there are no grounds to assert with certainty that physical death was a consequence of sin.

I think “the Fall” does refer to the transformation which places us outside the natural checks and balances of nature. It requires us to become more self reliant and also to seek what cosmicscotus refered to as the voice of the spirit. I think (sorry @Klax) that mythic thinking about this rift in our nature is productive, and beyond the reach of direct analysis and conceptualization. It is a question of getting insight into the way our being has been divided and the desirability to form a relationship between the parts of our fractured nature.

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

No argument from me I’m afraid Mark! Happy to mine the mythic for psychological, existential, evolutionary, poetic insight.

[SkovandOfMitaze (Mi)]

I completely agree that the term spiritual death is not in scripture and that kids are not born spiritually dead.

The verses in genesis reads like this concerning death. You shall die until you die.

https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/2-17.htm

You’ll notice surely and shall die are both the word die. Dying until you die. Nothing spiritual about it. When Adam sinned, he begin dying and would continue dying until he finally died.

That is again mentioned in the next chapter

19 By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”

Until you return to the ground. ( dying until you die)
and to dust you shall return. ( finally dying )

With that said the concept of being separated from god “ a spiritual death “ does exist. The wages of sin is death. It’s sin that separates us from God. Not merely being born.

The Bible says that there is a time in every humans life where they are not yet old enough to choose good or evil. It says that wickedness , and evening mistreating your wife, can hinder your prayers. When Jesus was on the cross and took on our sins, it says God turned from him, and Jesus cried out why have you forsaken me. A separation occurred momentarily.

[ProDeo (Ed)]

@Klax

So what Ed?

Without evidence I am not going to label Gen 2-3 as a myth because you say so So please elaborate.

@Klax

Is Jesus thinner because He humanly believed them?

But that’s an assumption, Jesus did not say much if anything at all about Gen 2-3, Jesus spoke about marriage only in relationship to the creation story, correct me I forget something.

And no, it won’t change my faith in Jesus, from all religions Christianity is the one that makes most sense.

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

Ed, there’s nothing but evidence.

And how could the fully human Jesus not believe His culture’s framing story that He saw and wrapped Himself in fully divinely?