Fantasies arise in human consciousness out of whatever epistemological and emotional mix prevails. No actual documented account is necessary.
We’re not able and a bizarre God is lost and rationality is gained.
There is no right place but my first paragraph.
Two miles higher.
Don’t understand. Pl explain.
I am with you on the importance of faith. But, honestly, I am unable to comprehend why you should be opposed to science, rationality and history. Unless I have missed it, you have not responded to the quote from the Pope.
I think it may be time to close this discussion if you keep on asserting primacy of faith, which I am fine with, and not respond to the rest. Let us not fight about what we agree.
My mistake in part. The floods in the Indus valley took place at 5000 bp as said in the quote. That would be about 3000 bce. There are many estimates of the time of the flood from about 3300 bce onwards.
Given you are talking about regional floods and not a global flood, care to guess how many other regional floods took place 5,000 bp?
Took a bit of digging but I found a reference. The purpose of this paper is not to locate Eden but you have to admit it could well point to a cultural memory that became the basis of the location of Eden.
New Light on Human Prehistory in the Arabo-Persian Gulf Oasis
pdf of paper
Not to simply quote mine the abstract but it does say this
Indeed, there would be many places where there may have taken place a local flood at c. 3000 BCE. However, this particular place is important because it fits into the larger picture that I give briefly below (along with the contrast with West Asia).
EDEN-ADAM.
Geography: Indus: Four rivers flow from Pushkar. W Asia: No four rivers.
Archaeology: Indus: Pushkar inhabited from pre-historic times. W Asia: Lake Van uninhabited. Qurnah habited.
Traditions: Indus: Temple of Brahma-the-creator located here. W Asia: No living tradition at Lake Van or Qurnah.
FLOOD-NOAH.
Geography: Indus: Bowl-like geological formation with rain waters staying put. W Asia: Sumer was well-drained.
Archaeology: Indus: Floods begin at 5000 BP. W Asia: Flood are recurrent. Archaeological evidence is available.
Traditions: Indus: The Meena Community in South Rajasthan believes they are descendants of Vaivaswat Manu (the Indian name of Noah). W Asia: None.
CHALDEA-ABRAHAM
Geography: Indus: Two rivers are Yamuna and Ghaggar. W Asia: No two rivers near Ur Chaldea.
Archaeology: Indus: Harappan Civilization. W Asia: Sumeric Civilization.
Traditions: Indus: Rama is parallel to Abraham, wife of both sent to the palace of the king, for example. W Asia: No parallel tale.
EXODUS-MOSES
Geography: Indus: Mud volcano could have blocked the flow of the Indus River. Taftan volcano lies on the route from Indus Valley to Israel. W Asia: No volcano in Sinai.
Archaeology: Indus: End of the Indus Civilization. Evidence of baked bricks. W Asia: Sinai has archaeological evidence only of Egyptian people c. 1500 BCE.
Traditions: Indus: Kishna is said to have left for an unknown country. W Asia: No figure parallel to Moses in Egypt.
The case for Exodus from the Indus Valley does not stand on any one standalone parallel such as the Flood at 3000 BCE that may be found at a number of places. . Rather it stands on continuity of geographical and archaeological evidences and parallel persons in the tradition.
I agree that cultural memory may lie behind the various creation legends. But why postulate this when four rivers are staring into your eyes?
The lower Sumer or Persian Gulf location has four rivers coming in, not going out.
Once again, we have to look at all the evidences. Thx.
Four current rivers. Certainly nothing could have changed in the geography since the period long past that we are really talking about, right? Current geography and hydrology is hardly a compelling argument.
Not if you’re Bible believing.
Ararat’s height.
Where are your footnotes to sources for your nationalistic claims in the Orwellian sense?
The Hebrew rosh is also used for chief so the rivers don’t have to originate in Eden.
Do your four rivers all share the exact same source? Again, how many other locations contain four rivers?
Yes a location that at the time would be considered a paradise fits the description of Eden.
And the only river of the four with a description, the Pishon, fits a river flowing through Arabia.
The only evidence you bring is your belief that the Hebrews forgot their geography.
I give link below to a paper I published in the Journal of Indo-Judaic Studies edited by Nathan Katz, Professor at University of Miami. I have traced the parallels with all references in place except for geography.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SObFpnisPfl55H7vG3KUACyFaEi5H4Kh/view?usp=sharing
I give link below of a paper I published in the Journal of Archaeological Studies in India edited by Tosabanta Padhan, Professor at Indian Institute of Technology - similar to MIT. Main geographical evidences for the location of Adam, Cain, Noah, Abraham and Moses are given here with references.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kay4WXAmUgVKowMHuEOH-HjCstHeftQh/view?usp=sharing
There is much more. But for the present, I think this may suffice. Thx.
The Pishon also matches the Indus Valley:
We searched for these materials in the area south of Pushkar where we have suggested the Pishon flowed. We began with “zahab.” “Zahab” is conventionally identified with gold. (Strong’s 02091). But gold is not found south of Pushkar. Thus we looked for alternative meanings of the word “zahab.” We found that the root of the word “zahab” is “to shimmer.” (Strong’s 02091.). Thus, the two qualities of zahab are yellow colour, which is derived from its conventional association with gold; and shimmering, which is derived from its grammatical root.
Figure 20: Abandoned emerald mine at Rajgarh. Photo: Author, January 2008.
Jewelers at the town of Rajgarh located in the area suggested we consider the yellow emerald, which is yellow like gold and has the quality of shimmering. The Department of Mines and Geology of the Government of Rajasthan says that the emerald belt extends into District of Ajmer, which covers the area south of Pushkar. (Department of Mines and Geology, Precious & Semi-Precious Stones inn Rajasthan, Government of Rajasthan, www.dmg-raj.org/docs/Vol.%2018%20No.3b.doc, Retrieved June 29, 2016.). Photo of an abandoned emerald mine near Rajgarh is given in Figure 20. Thus, we suggest that the Bible uses the word “zahab” for the yellow emerald.
Figure 21: Resin oozing out of guggulu tree, Mangaliawas. Photo: Author, January 2008.
The second material associated with the Pishon River was “bdellium,” which is a gum resin. (Strong’s 0916.) People harvest a gum resin from the guggulu plant in the area. Figure 21 gives picture of gum oozing from the trunk of a guggulu tree at the Guggulu Research Farm at Mangaliawas, south of Pushkar.
The third material associated with the Pishon River was “shoham.” This word means “a precious stone or gem, probably the beryl (from its pale green color).” (Strong’s 07718.). Beryl is also found in the area (Department of Mines and Geology, Precious…). Thus, we find that all the three materials associated with the Pishon River are found in the area south of Pushkar. This supports the possibility that the Bible mentions the Sagarmati as Pishon and the area south of Pushkar as Havilah.
Further, two of the four rivers have exactly the same source. Two rivers have their origins within 10 km across a small mountain range.
You may also like to see the links I posted above.
Yes, the Aravalli Mountain range is located nearby. Also we have a geological formation that leaves no pathway for rain waters to drain to the sea.
The circled area is the probable area of the Flood.
Self reference is no reference at all.
Colloquially that means >50%. So what is the probability of that? So how did 8 people do the portage?
“x is true, because I said it was true elsewhere”
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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