That is too hilarious not to be true.
@Klax, do you mean this one? It’s still in the thread.
Although it’s not from this morning.
I’ve been meaning to ask what you meant by “Islamo-Thomist aguments”
As the mother of two, spread 6 years apart, I’ve spent the last almost 20 years wishing I had the control of my time and energy and attention that I needed for the kind of deep study I had done before I was a parent. Yeah. I sympathize/empathize/am com-pathic with Kant’s housekeeper and Thoreau’s mom. In the last year I’ve actually had the time and energy to do things with my brain that I haven’t been able to for a very long time, because the girls need less of my time and I am also free of the church library from our former church. The gap is regretable. And was unavoidable.
Regarding natural theology why don’t we just continue with the book, ‘eh? I think he’s going to answer a lot of questions, if we keep reading.
By the way, Chapter 1 discussion starts Monday, right? How’s the reading going? Any things that need clarification, definitions, background?
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I tend to expand a bit on that and have the hope that God holds us/them responsible for what we do know, not what we do not know.
I have enjoyed the discussion, but have been driving a lot the last few days, and unable to contribute. Perhaps now that we are settled in Colorado on vacation can do more, though internet is spotty here. The discussion has helped clarify post-modernism a bit, and maybe also what modernism actually consists of.
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I’ve read through chapter 3 by now. I think we’re all just holding off on chapter 1 stuff till the scheduled day arrives. It’s nice to have that pace set for us so that we don’t rush through the book faster than we should, and for people who have day jobs or life away from this forum, they have a chance to catch up.
BTW - the teasers at the beginning of each chapter can be interesting. At the top of Chapter 4 that I’m about to start is the quote: “If you follow Jesus and don’t end up dead, it appears you have some explaining to do.” - Terry Eagleton.
The first time I read that it didn’t sink in to me, like it did just now. I’ll have to look up Eagleton. Sounds interesting.
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It’ not. This is not the kind of stuff I read unless I have some use for it. I don’t have a use for it unless I am going to write about it.
One thing about reading ahead is that it gives one an advantage in discussing prior sections because he often summarizes where he’s already been. So then going back and reading the earlier sections again, one better anticipates where he will go or what he means.
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“apologetic arguments and natural theology are linguistic survivals from the practices of classical Christianity that have lost the context that made them meaningful and relevant”
Natural theology: a practice of classical Christianity that was once meaningful.
More and more as Penner refers to pre-modernity, it feels like hand waiving. I picked up Boyd’s The Virtues: A Very Short Introduction and thought it’d be interesting to get a peek at what came before After Virtue. One interesting takeaway was how Aristotle’s view of virtue relates to Augustine, and then how Aquinas synthesized the two views. Confucius is considered as well as other Islamic philosophers. The book is not highly recommended, but it is providing additional perspective.
So, do you have some postmodern natural theology for us?
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I wouldn’t call it natural or theology
I’d be curious to hear more from you about this. From what I’ve read of Penner’s book so far (which is most of it by now), he hasn’t said a lot about pre-modernity. When it does come up, it seems to be only as it contrasted with modernity. Most of his time is spent in modernity and its contrast with postmodernity.
If you’re thinking that it seems to leave an impression of a rather abrupt change from pre-modernity into modernity, then yeah - I agree that the modern imagination tends to treat “the dark ages” as a night time that was dispelled by rather sudden day time enlightenment of “modern” science exploding onto the scene. And that myth has been pretty well dispelled by authors like James Hannam in his book “God’s Philosophers”. Or even just reading the shorter (but still half a dozen dense pages) Dennis Danielson’s “The Great Copernican Cliche” also helps dispel the modern myth about the “dark” ages.
In real life, very few changes are sudden - and when they are it’s always only seen that way from a far future perspective, and rarely anything people living through it at the time would have percieved as all that sudden. (which makes it remarkable that we do have the perception of some suddenness of lots of changes in this last century and especially recent decades of our own lives regarding things like climate change, etc.)
My feeling is based on what I’m reading in the introduction and there have been some pretty far reaching statements about post-modernity.
I can go back and look at my notes if I need to, but it’s definitely in there.
And I get what you are saying about how things are perceived to change. That’s not my point. As a kind of reverse illustration, I don’t think the change from Aquinas to Descartes (to Kierkegaard?) is as radical as Penner claims. As through the looking glass.
I mention Kierkegaard as I’m not sure what to expect when we get there.
“Undoubtedly, many of my readers believe apologetic discourse to be the very heart of Christian thought and the means by which Christianity is demonstrably true, intellectually satisfying, and worthy of belief, or has anything relevant to say to us today at all.”
Does this strike anyone as heavy handed? I have probably met what might be called cage stage apologists. But never sensed that in someone like Sproul who was a text book classical apologist.
“Christians often lack a desirable humility regarding their convictions and realizing they are frequently prone to overestimate the rational warrant for their beliefs,”
Oh… I see now…
Edit: I’ve also met those people who swear they’re right no matter what. But it’s more of a human condition and an interesting book on late modern philosophy is called The Age of Ideology.
@heymike3, catching up as we are driving through the countryside. I get what you say about a lack of information a out premodern culture/s. There is a broad description in the paragraph that spans pp 26 and 27, also 27n13.
Thanks Kendel. I’ll have a look.
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I’ve been around a few. I’ve also heard/seen street evangelists. Neither was a good experience, and I was already a Christian.
Mike, I haven’t had time to research this week or organize the scanty bits I have found on premodern culture/s. I will continue as I can and try to pull things together as I can. Feel free to highlight anything you find informative.
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“Kierkegaard’s rejection of apologetics (and its use of reason) is to be seen as part and parcel of his rejection of the modern conception of reason—not of reason altogether.” Penner
I have a suspicion Kierkegaard was responding to the established state church in Copenhagen that evidenced a still born faith and clothed itself in dogmatic rationalizations.
“Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.” Proverbs 26:4