“The End of Apologetics: Christian Witness in a Postmodern Context” by Myron B. Penner

Some of these that you list are much like NT descriptions of lived hermenutics: moral and generous living of the church, and some rely on eye-witness testimonies, which are things that Penner is promoting. Others are not so much an apologetic but a clarification of what Christianity IS in contrast to commonly held misconceptions.

This one sounds like it finds its strength in in the preference of “the crowd”. And that is exactly what Penner is arguing against.
There are others in your list that would fall in the same category.

I am still hoping to discuss, rather than historic and alternative forms of apologetics, how those that Penner promotes might be carried out, what they might look like in the lives of average, non-genius Christians right now.

(It’s late here now, and I still have much other work to do. So, I must go.)

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Nice assembly of apologists through early Patristic history there - thanks.

And I believe it highlights another point worth clarifying that I don’t think Penner would disagree with. And that is that while we may, with hyperbole and over-simplification, speak of “the enlightenment” as if it was this neatly packaged thing that cleanly succeeded a “dark ages” period in some given year (or even some given century), real history is actually much more complicated than that. Just as we can find pre-Socratic Greek atomists, we nonetheless don’t speak of the atomic age as beginning until much more recent centuries - and rightly so - which does not imply that nobody had been having any such ideas about atoms way back before.

I don’t think anybody here would argue that Aquinas, for example, wasn’t himself the quintessential apologist in every rationalistic and modernist sense of that word, and yet he precedes (I think) that period we would generally identify as the dawn of modernism. And all the rest of your examples trailing even earlier simply showcase this even more. The fact that there were early precursors to rationalism and formal argumentation (who probably even could be credited with bringing that whole age into fruition when in fact it did come into its own) doesn’t mean that it was common currency with the “man on the street” of those earlier eras. The fact that we don’t find John or Paul or Jesus searching out the ivory towers or the Alexandrias to make their cases there and on those terms, but instead see them more “among the masses” as it were should tell us something. It doesn’t tell us that those ivory towered philosophers were insignificant (much less non-existent). But it does seem to tell us where the active advancing fronts of early church growth were - busy caring for their neighbors, spreading testimony, and often being martyred. Yes, they did look for their leaders to get doctrines worked out, and councils of empire really did happen. But I think one is hard pressed to make the case that Jesus sought / seeks to spread his kingdom by means of horses and chariots, rather than by actual followers getting their hands dirty in the streets attending to the least of these. There are some who do think primarily at the level of empire of course - especially in nations like ours here today; but they must set aside most of what Jesus and Paul taught in order to come out there.

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Had my favorite Kierkegaard books at work - now that I can flip through them, a few thoughts that I think may well be relevant to the discussion:

“Just let this truth be said and heard: that ‘sensibleness’, whose opinion is tha the requireemnt must be modeled according to the people, and Christianity, whose position is that people must be remodeled according to the requireemnt, (or that in any case the unconditioned requirement must be unconditionally affirmed)… that these two, sensibleness and Christianity, cannot come to an understanding with each other.”

“Even if not one single person wants to accept it, Christianity remains unchanged; it does not yield a jot or tittle; if everyone were to accept it, not a jot or tittle may be changed.”

“What stands between Christianity and people in these sensible tims is that they have lost the conception of the unconditioned requirement, that they cannot get it into their heads why the requirement is the unconditioned… that the unconditioned has become for them the impractical, a foolishness, a ridiculousness, so that they, mutinously or conceitedly, reverse the relation, seek the fault in the requirement and themselves become the claimants who demand that the requirement be changed.”

“This is why we human beings, sly as always with regard to God and divine truth, have directed all our attention to understanding, to knowing. We make out as if the difficulty were there, and as if it would follow naturally that if we only understand the right it follows automatically that we do it. What a grievous misunderstanding or what a sly fabrication! … Also in our day there is talk about this, that Christianity is not to be expounded artificially, bombasticaly, but simply – and in the exchange of ideas they fight about it, they write books about it, it becomes a branch of scholarship all its own, and perhaps one even makes it into a livelihod and becomes a professor in the subject, omitting or forgetting that the real simplicity, the truly simple exposition of the esentially Christian is - to do it.

"It is true that some people have doubted the Ascension. yes, but who has doubted? I wnder, have any of those doubted whose lives bore the marks of imitation? I wonder, have any of those doubted who had orsaken all to follow Christ/ I wonder, have any of those who doubted, were they marked by persecution (and when imitation is a given, this follows)? No, not one of them.

“My listener, along which way are you walking in this life? Remember something that I say to myself: It is not true of every narrow way that Christ is that way or that it leads to heaven.”

“If God’s Word for you is merely a doctrine, smething impersonal and objective, then it is no mirror. An objective doctrine cannot be called a mirror; it is just as impossible to look at yourself in an objective doctrine as to look at yourself in a wall.”

“Then when the parable ends and Christ says to the Pharisee, ‘Go and do likewise,’ you shall say to yourself, 'It is I to whom this is addressed–away at once!”

'i thereby also make sure that God’s Word cannot take hld of me because I do not place myself in any personal (subjective) relation to the Word, but on the contrary…change the Word into an impersonal something (the objective, an objective doctrine, etc.), to which I - both earnest and cultured! - relate myself objectively… No, no, no! When you read God’s Word, in everything you red, continually say to yourself: It is I to whom it is speaking, it is I about whom it is speaking—this is earnestness; precisely this is earnestness."

“To be alone with Holy Scripture! I dare not! If I open it–any passage–it traps me at once; it asks me (indeed, it is as if it were God himself who asked me): Have you done what you read there? And then, then–yes, then I am trapped. Then either straightway into action–or immediately a humbling admission.”

“One can defend oneself against God’s Word in a quite different way. Take Holy Scripture, lock your door–but then take ten dictionaries, twenty-five comentaries, then you can read it, just as calmly and coolly as you read newspaper advertising. If, a you sit there reading a passage, you happen, curiously enough, to get the idea: “Have I done this? Do I act according to this?”… then the danger is still not very great. “Look, perhaps there are several variations, and perhaps a new manuscript has just been found… and the prospect of new variations, and perhaps there are five interpreters with one opinion and seven with another and two wth a strange opinion and three who are wavering or have no opinion and I myself am not absolutely sure about the meaning of this passage…” Such a person does not get into the awkward position I am in: either to have to comply with the Word immediately or at least to be obliged to make a humbling confession. No, he is calm and says, ‘There is no problem as far as I am concerne; I certainly intend to comply–as soon as the discrepancies are ironed out and the interpreters agree fairly well.’ Aha! That certainly will not be for a long time yet. The man succeeded, however, in obscuring the fact that the error is in him, that it is he who has no desire to deny flesh and blood and to comply with God’s Word. What a tragic misuse of scholarship, that it is made so easy for people to deceive themselves!”

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Thank you for these, Daniel. That’s a lot of typing, and a grest selection. What books are they from?

A few more favorites:

’ ‘But,’ you perhaps say, ‘there are so many obscure passages in the Bible, whole boks that are practically riddles.’ To that I would answer: 'Before I have anything to do with this objection, it must be made by someone whose life manifests tat he has scrupulously complied with all the passages that are easy to understand; is that the case with you? … God’s Word is given in order that you shall act according to it, not that you shall practice interpreting obscure passages. If you do not read God’s Word in such a way that you consider that the least little bit you do understand instantly binds you to do accordingly, then you are not reading God’s Word."

“There is always a secular mentality that no doubt wants to have the name of being Christian but wants to become Christian as cheaply as possible.”

“Christianity’s requirement is this: your life should express works as strenuously as possible; then one thng more is required–that you humble yourself and cnfess: But my being saved is nevertheless grace.”

“Christianity does indeed proclaim itself to be comfort, cure, and healing–that being so, people turn to it as they turn to a friend in need, thank it as they thank a helper, because by the help of it or by its help they believe they will be able to bear the suffering under which they sigh. And then–then the very opposite happens. they go to the Word to seek help-and then come to suffer on account of the word… Tribulation and persecution come upon one because he has turned to Christianity for help…So also with Christianity. Now the issue is, will you b ofended or will you believe. If you will believe, then you push through the possibility of offense and accept Chrstianty on any terms. So it goes; then forget the understanding; then you say: Whether it is a help or a torment, I want only one thing: I want to belong to Christ, I want to be a Christian.”

“Jesus Christ, the founder and perfecter of faith, who, pointing to the demonstrations [miracles], that certainly must have had the greatest effect at the time they occured, nevertheless adds, ‘Blessed is he who is not offended at me.’–that is, he refers to the demonstrations [miracles] in such a way that he denies that they are the way to him.”

“There [in Christendom] those enormous folios have been written that develop the demonstrations of the truth of Christianity. Behind these, the demonstrations and folios, we feel perfectly convinced ourselves and secure against all atack, because every demonstration and every folio end with"ergo, Christ was the one he claimed to be.” By means of the demonstrations it is just as certain as 2+2=4 and as easy as putting one’s foot in a sock. With this irrefutable ‘ergo’, which directly clarifies the matter, the assistant professor and preach bid defiance, and the missionary cnfidently goes forth to convert the heathen with the aid of this ‘ergo.’ But not Christ! He does not say, ‘Ergo, I am the expected one.’ He says, after having referred to the demnstrations, : “Blessed is he who is not offended at me.” That is, he himself makes it clear that in relation to him there can be no question of any demonstrating, that we do not come to him by means of demonstrations, that there is no direct transition to become Christian, that demonstrations can at best serve to make a person aware, so that made aware he can now come to the point: whether he will believe or he will be offended… Only in the choice is the heart disclosed (and this indeed, was why Chrit came into the world – to disclose the thoughs of te heart)… See, a theological professor who, with the help of everything that had been written earlir about it, has written a new bok on the demonstrations of the truth of Christianity, would feel insluted if someone would not admit that it was now demonstrated. Christ himself, however, says no more than that the demonstrations are able to lead somene–not to faith, far from it (for then it would be superfluous to add: 'blessed is he who is not offended), but to the point where faith can come into existence, are able to help someone to become aware and to that extent help him to come into the dialectical tension from which faith breaks forth. Will you believe or will you be offended?"

“This individual human being is making hiself more than human, is making himself something close to God: is this not offensive? You see something inexplicable, miraculous (but no more); he himself says that it is a miracle–and you see before your eyes an individual human being. The miracle can demonstrate nothing, for if you do not believe him to be who he says he is, then you deny the miracle. The miracle can make aware–now you are in the tension, and it depends upon wht you choose, offense or faith; it is your heart that must be disclosed.”

“The God-man is not the union of God and man–such terminology is a profound optical illusion. The God-man is the unity of God and an individual human being.” That the human race is or is supposed to be in kinship with God is ancient paganism; but that an individual human being is God is Christianity, and this particular human being is the God-man."

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These are from my two favorite books, “Practice in Christianity” and the dual volume “For Self-Examination / Judge for Yourself”. For all my admiration and affinity with the Dane, I do often find him to be often verbose, convoluted, repetative, obscure, and indirect in his writing. I think sometimes he was trying to communicate his works in much more sophisticated, indirect, erudite, philosophical language, that even a sympathetic reader like myself has trouble following. These two works are intentionally written as more direct biblical devotional/ expositions/ exhortations, and are a bit more common/everyday language and straightforward than other of his works.

Just a few more favorite quotes for today…

" ‘If the essentially Christian is something so terrifying and appalling, how in the world can anytone think of accepting Christianity?’ Very simply (and, if you wish, very Lutheranly): Only the consciousness of sin can force one, if I dare to put it that way (from the other side of grace is the force), into this horror. And at that very same mment the essentially Christian transforms itself into and is sheer leniency, grace, love, mercy. Considered in any other way Christianity is and must be a kind of madness r the greatest horror. Admittance is only through the consciousness of sin; to want to enter by any other road is high treason against Christianty…

But sin - that you and I are sinners (the single individual), has been abolished, or it has been illicitly reduced both in life (the domestic, the civic, the ecclesiastical) and in scholarship, which has invented the doctrine of sin in general. By way of compensation they then want to help people into Christianity and keep them in it by means of all this about the world-historical, all this about the gentle teachings, the sublime and the profound, about a friend, etc.–all of which Luther would call rubbish and which is blasphemy, since it is brazen to want to fraternize with God and Christ. Only the consciousness of sin is absolute respect."

“Do not say that these are quibbling comments about words, anything but upbuilding. Believe me, it is very important for a person that his language be precise and true, becaue that means his thinking is also. Furthermore, even though understanding and speaking correctly are not everything, since acting correctly is indeed also required, yet understanding in relation to acting is like the springboard from which the diver makes his leap–the clearer, the more precise, the more passionate (in the god sense) the understanding is, the more it rises to action, or the easier it is to rise to action for the one who is to act.”

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Interestingly enough, having re-read these passages… I had never made the direct or conscious connect that Kierkegaard himself made explicit the certain equivalence or direct analogy between rational “demonstrations” of the truth of the faith, and the miraculous “demonstrations” that Jesus made of his divine nature… I had thought that was my own insight to make an analogy or equivalence between the two - based of course on his larger insight… but I thought it was my own mind that made the link between the two explicit. perhaps I noticed it from him ages ago when I first read this, and subsequently forgot, or somehow it just got into my subconscience. But he indeed had made this connection explicit, by using the same word (demonstration) for both rational arguments and for Jesus’s miracles.

Either way, I think that is probably the most critical point of Kierkegaard I would bring to the discussion… apologetic reasoning, in a manner near equivalent to Jesus’ miracles, do have an important if not vital task - that being, to make someone aware of the choice that needs to be made. unless the miracle is performed, people may not find any reason to take Christ’s claims seriously (or even be aware of them at all); similarly, if people don’t believe in God whatsoever, they similarly may not find any reason to consider Christ’s claims to deity. But giving a demonstration [either miraculous or rational], while never a direct avenue to real faith, may well nonetheless be helpful to establish awareness of the claim that at that point must be either embraced by faith or rejected in offense.

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Daniel, thank you for all of these. I am on the road much today and will return to your posts later, when I can give them proper attention. There is much here.
Thanks for the book titles.

I appreciate you making this link about a day ago. I ended up rereading g that thread and also Liam’s first post to the BioLogos that he linked to in it. This one has become a lot less interesting but all good things come to an end I suppose. I’m glad you started it and did so much to make it run so well.

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Well you be careful too.

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Good points:

Especially if one denies the very possibility of sin (speaking as one who is a sinner).
 

 
For any not recently familiar with that answer:

Wouldn’t it be interesting (at least I think so) to know how the Sadducees reacted to Jesus’ answer? We’re not told - so apparently that wasn’t important to Mark who was more focused on Jesus’ words (and rightly so, of course!) What I’ve been “making much” of is that this seems to be the only instance (that I can recall) of interaction with the Sadducees (or anybody who thought like that.) It isn’t that these people weren’t around - and on the religious scene even. It just seems like the Pharisees were a big focus, either because they were the ones who showed more interest or because of something about Jesus and his disciples.

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Tough reading. And these are just samples. I suspect context may complicate the reading even more, but also clarify…maybe.

A few things strike me on my first (fairly thorough) reading. It usually takes me many, and my eyes are about done working for the day. But this:

This certainly addresses much of what we see popularized as Christianity today. “Moralistic, therapeutic deism is largely what is peddled. Church growth as a business model. Jesus as a therapist or fixer.” These quotes speak to me very loudly.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone on tv promote the truth about it: Jesus just might make your life seem worse.

Yes, he does use the term “demonstration”, but notice the irony, when he talks about the apologist, professor and missionary with their folios and “ergos”. Since I’ve only read this a few times and only as quotes from the books, not in context, I could very well be missing something, but I maybe I got it.

Thanks for all the quotes and the book references.
The other week I started the OUP Very Short Introduction to K, before attempting to forge out into the actual work. Having a few more hooks to tie ideas to will help, at least it has with other tough reading in other contexts. But I would like to start into some of K’s work sometime soon. It probably won’t be “Either/Or” at first. :upside_down_face: Seems rather notorious.

And finally, angling back to how to go forward with Penner’s proposals for Christians in a postmodern context…do you see anything in these quotes, or your other reading of K, that would help the standard-issue Christian demonstrate the truth of their encounter with Christ in a way that would make sense outside of the church doors, while maintaining an ethics of belief as well as of witness?

Terry, you may be on to something really great here, but I have no idea what it is. Speak plainly, man.
There’s enough hidden code language elsewhere in this thread. I ignore it as a rule.

Mark, thanks for all your valuable input in this book discussion. You’ve forced me to think better about a lot of what we’ve read and discussed and you’ve brought good insights into the discussion.
If we are able to come around to themes that are of interest to you again, I hope you’ll feel like joining in the discussion again. I do understand, though, that discussions morph in ways that become uninteresting. I’ll “see” you in other threads, if not here.

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I’m trying to get my mind back to where I want it to be in this discussion and went back up to the rough beginning of our writing “Chapter 6” discussion.
I will be reviewing the conclusions of the chapters, particularly 4 and 5 to reorient my thinking back to where I want it to be–Penner’s theses.

And I hope to feed on some others’ work that may give insight I lack.
I’d forgotten that @MarkD had mentioned this book. While I don’t have time to read a whole book, I’ll look over some of it on my Kobo (thank you Bookshare) and think about what application might be made. I have a few other things I want to look over by James K. A. Smith, Charles Taylor, Merold Westphal, J. Todd Billings an anthology called “The Gospel after Christendom.” Plus others I have on my Kindle.

Still looking through the top of the end of this thread, I had pulled this quote from the blurb for J.D. Hunter’s newer book. I would like to explore the idea of the church maintaining a Faithful Presence. I understand the word “Faithful” and “Faithfulness” have come to be controversial. In spite of that, I wonder if there is something of value in Hunter’s idea here.

The main reason I wrote the bibliography for The End of Apologetics (see the resource slide for the link to it) is so I could have an orderly list of resources Penner relied on to look into myself. Some things I have already pulled together from Bookshare. And I can’t possibly read it all. But I have the list to pick and choose from.

@Mervin_Bitikofer brought up enchantment and even tried to get a separate thread going to talk about it. Got derailed a bit, but enchantment may still have a place in this thread.

What and how do we communicate. We know there is content Penner has in mind. He’s vague, though. I think he is. Can we pull together our thoughts on this a la Penner (with both senses of the END of apologetics in mind).

[Anyone who would like to start a new thread on the Defense of Apologetics, please do. This thread has unfinished business:

Merv mentioned Macdonald, and @Randy has as well. I wonder, if what could be brought in regarding:

Lots to do today. I’ll be listening and reviewing while I drive and get the groceries. Get back to that place where I once belonged.

About where the sidewalk ends. :wink:

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Wow, a real tour de force of a post Kendal. I’m instantly interested again. Of course I don’t feel entitled to say what way forward will be felt adequate for a Christian way of life. But I still find value in your discussion and continue to have associations and ideas arise as I follow along. For example you mentioned Merv’s thoughts about the enchantment of the world and that made me realize ways I still think the world and we who are enmeshed here very much live in a state of enchantment. Seeing things that way is so much better in a number of ways. It is basically what it feels like to walk into the truth. You recognize it as you go and the world opens up to us more richly. Perhaps that discussion belongs here perhaps in a new thread Merv may want to start. Count me in.

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Here is a review of a book which might make a nice tangential bridge for the likes of me to poke around in some of the ideas in the Penner book from a less Christian centric perspective. I’m 15th on the wait list for this book reviewed below, Magnificent Rebels: The First Romantics an the Invention of the Self. I’ll be sure to share relevant tidbits.

Sorry if this is behind a pay wall. I’m holding the hard copy in my hands having finally gotten to open Sunday’s NYT. The article occurs in the Sunday Opinion section. I am most interested in the philosopher Friedrich Shelling, another like Kierkegaard and Spinoza that was brilliant and then died tragically young. He is one that McGilchrist quotes frequently and which I often find thought provoking.

Edited to include a link to avoid the pay wall for anyone who encounters it, courtesy of Kendal.
nytimes.com – 14 Sep 22

These Romantics Celebrated the Self, to a Fault

“Magnificent Rebels,” by Andrea Wulf, paints a vivid portrait of the 18th-century German Romantics: brilliant intellectuals and poets who could also be petty, thin-skinned and self-involved.

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The truth has to be known before anyone can truly feel like they’re walking in it, speaking of used car salesmen. What’s enchanting are God’s providential co-instants – they can be embraced, and they are delightful!