Agreed. But I don’t understand how someone could come away from reading all of Scripture and say that the only thing salvation entails is forgiving others in order to be forgiven.
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Vengence is such a popular theme, in most countries of the world. Payback, revenge is a great movie theme because everyone wants it. forgiving others is not a trivial task. most people . . . are unwilling to do it. Unforgiving is essential to divorce and wars in general. not trivial.
my reason for speaking out is that so much wrong thinking - that infant baptism, a church wedding, regular church attendance, reciting the Nicene creed . . are keys to the favor of God. Rather it is to forgive wrongs - turn the other cheek. just reading what Jesus said, that’s all. We are measured mercy as we measure it to others.
I want to get on to interesting discussions of how evolution can best be understood, but understanding of the cosmos, how God works, it is science, not about “being saved”. that is much simpler to follow from the words of Jesus. only difficult to do.
Again in Matthew is the story of the King who gives mercy, forgives debts of a steward. As we receive mercy from God. The man goes out and throttles another man with a small debt. in this way the steward loses the mercy of God, by his own unmerciful actions.
Jesus also is clear that his vision is not about family values, this is not your mother’s or brother’s or grandpa’s vision, rather each person makes his own life choice and is accountable for his own choice. It is so clear, what would he say about your guilt for a great (20 generations) grandfather’s (adam) sin? it has no meaning. you by your choice to give or withhold mercy control your destiny.
So if Jesus would not sanction “original sin” who invented this? St. Augustine gets credit for saying if your child dies unbaptized he goes hell. It is a good slogan to build a city of god, make sure that your grand children get baptized. Over centuries this is seen as a bit harsh, so Limbo was invented (1300). Unbaptized who die go to Limbo, not hell. Only in the 21 st Century is Limbo decommissioned. No longer necessary. They, the innocents who died, can rely on the mercy of God, maybe get into heaven without need of Limbo. Another doctrinal change over 1700 years.
there are other stories that acknowledge evil in the world, like Pandora’s box.
But what Jesus calls evil, in Matthew, are exactly the instincts that would drive successful biological evolution: murder, deception, promiscuity.
None of these things are necessarily positive drivers of evolution, just as I would also say that while forgiveness of others shows the heart of Christ, it is not the sole determinate of salvation, as you stated. In much the same way, you have to put gas in your car to make it go, but it takes more than gas to run.
Murder is in no way of benefit to the community, deception also is negative (though I am uncertain as to why it would be considered a factor), and while you could argue that promiscuity may lead to more offspring, even that is unlikely, as a stable home may lead to a higher survival rate of healthy offspring.
Be that as it may, salvation and our relationship with God is not related or dependent on evolution, and has no concern with evolution or the mechanism of creation. Whether evolution is factual or not is unrelated to our relationship with Jesus, though it may impact how we come to either know God or how we are driven away.
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There are several items here.
- “is that all?” Forgivenes doesn’t seem like much of a problem? As I read the parable in Matthew (18: 21-35), the closest current issue that it applies to, here and now is people asking for forgiveness in the form of amnesty for illegal aliens. I find the language from Matthew so close that I would expect people who reading the passage to clamor for amnesty. Organized Christian groups shouting that Jesus would require us to offer mercy . . . seem to be outnumbered and outgunned by NRA. They are afraid to take the side of poor, dirty, brown people who may include rapists and drug dealers, to demand amnesty. “ is that all” that is required of the passage?” As I read it, “It is much” that the passage requires of us today. Is it target for the acceptance of God at the last judgement? Seems to fit exactly.
- Camouflage is the most common deception from evolution. Fish are white on the bottom and dark on top to evade predators. Big fish eat little fish, if they can find them. Anemones trick fish to swim in and become dinner. On the terrestrial side it is the same story, either you have greater strength, or deception for survival. That is what we resort to in war where morality is suspended. Murder, body count is what they do in war. Deception classics are the Trojan Horse and Gen 34:13-29 .
- Finally, compassion also comes from our evolutionary roots. Females, given the opportunity to choose mates, will choose compassionate males. The male keen to win battles and copulate, may not have gentleness for offspring. May kill offspring. I am not sure how far down the evolutionary chain this compassion can be found.
so I agree that morality, what we should be doing, is independent of our understanding of creation and evolution. I agree that the demands of Jesus exceed what we practice, publicly propose. I got into this discussion trying to accommodate evolution and genesis, how we understand good and evil.
Thanks for expanding that, I can see where you are coming from. Deception in my mind was associated with a willful desire rather than a physical attribute.
One thing that always strikes me is that to the individual organism, life is really just about making it another day, feeding hunger, finding satisfaction (not sure how that works with worms, but my cat seems satisfied when her kittens are happy) and evolution does not really enter into it until we step back and look at the community of organisms as a whole. With sin, we certainly see not only individual sin but corporate sin where the nation of Israel was found wanting.
“original” sin presents newly created Eve in dialogue with a snake. And Eve has never made an ethical/moral choice because she has not yet tasted of the knowledge of good and evil. No background, no training. no sense that a talking snake is very unusual. After eating the apple she has a discussion with Adam. He does not challenge the talking snake giving advice. He also makes a decision without knowledge of good and evil, without context. The punishment of GOD exceeds all experience. They and their children are cursed into the forseeable future.
In contrast King David, guided by prophet, siblings and parents as well as normal sunday school, notices a girl preening outside the castle…Brings the girl in, empregnates her, and to avoid having her stoned for adultery, arranges to have her husband killed. That covers most of the evil descriptions that we have. There is public exposure where a prophet would have him , a me for all generations, but he says he is sorry, and only the first child dies. The next child is Solomon, one of the most famous of all times, born to a couple who just broke all the rules
Seems like God has undergone a great change in how he treats humans?
Or a merciful God could not have gone thru with Original Sin as we teach it, pass it one. Punishment of an unwitting innocent that extends for thousands of years. Such a characterization of God is demeaning, insulting, I cannot accept it. Why do not the higher level clerics explode/expose the story as a story only. Throughout the bible, the MOST common phrase is " His mercy endures forever". Original sin says" his punishment endures forever". please tell me you don’t believe that.
I think we agree, and my view of Adam is in most agreement with the archetypical model. Perhaps there was a particular individual identified as Adam, perhaps there was not. Either way, I am in need of mercy and grace, and it has been provided abundantly.
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