The Abrahamic Religions Myth

[T_aquaticus]

@St.Roymond

The Jesus of the Mormons is the “spirit brother” of Satan, and the bastard son of a rapist Father – how is that the Jesus of the New Testament?

According to Mormons, that is the Jesus of the New Testament.

@St.Roymond

A single name can refer to completely different entities. It is the description of the particular entities that will tell whether or not they are the same.

You can have different descriptions of the same entity. For example, a person may be very kind and respectful at work but authoritarian and abusive at home. If people at a work place and a person’s family give different descriptions of this person they are still talking about the same person.

[Terry_Sampson]

@T_aquaticus

You can have different descriptions of the same entity. For example, a person may be very kind and respectful at work but authoritarian and abusive at home. If people at a work place and a person’s family give different descriptions of this person they are still talking about the same person.

• Reasonable examples, if and only if you have in mind a specific flesh and blood person who is a co-worker and a family member. If 100 people talk about a unicorn and some agree on what it looks like but others disagree, are they all talking about the same unicorn? You’re talking about God and Abraham as if you believe that and care whether both exist. Do you? Or are you just talking about delusions that a lot of other people seem to have in common?

[T_aquaticus]

@Terry_Sampson

But you’re talking about God and Abraham as if you believe that and care whether both exist. Do you?

I believe that multiple religions exist which each claim to believe in the same God. They could all be right, some could be right, or they could all be wrong. However, I don’t see how having different or wrong descriptions of God means they believe in a different entity. You can believe in the same God but just be wrong about the description.

I think most Christians think they believe in the same God that the Jews believe in, even if the Jews think Christians are wrong about God sending his son.

[Terry_Sampson]

@T_aquaticus

I believe that multiple religions exist which each claim to believe in the same God.

• I used to believe the same thing. I definitely don’t assume that that is true anymore. That doesn’t mean that I believe everybody who doesn’t believe in and trust in my God is evil and going to spend eternity roasting in hell. It just means, I don’t agree, and we’re going to have to find something else to talk about.

@T_aquaticus

You can believe in the same God but just be wrong about the description.

• LOL! If you and I don’t believe in the same God, “we” both may be wrong, but “you” definitely are wrong.

@T_aquaticus

I don’t see how having different or wrong descriptions of God means they believe in a different entity.

• Ha! I think you’d have to actually believe in a god to wrap your head around my claim that “wrong descriptions” means exactly that: “a different entity”.

[Terry_Sampson]

@marta, have you seen my unicorn around here?

[marta]

@Terry_Sampson

@T_aquaticus

I believe that multiple religions exist which each claim to believe in the same God.

• I used to believe the same thing

Same here. I believed for many years that Allah and Yahweh are the same, but after coming across multiple facts I simply can’t anymore. And it’s not even that I wanted to change my mind - believing in the same deity among several religions solved lots of problems in my head.
Perhaps some think I get some kind of satisfaction out of saying Allah isn’t Yahweh, and maybe some do, but certainly not me. Just the opposite.

@T_aquaticus

For example, a person may be very kind and respectful at work but authoritarian and abusive at home

It makes no sense to me that this analogy should apply to God. So God decides to treat people completely different in different geographical locations? That would make Him psychopathic megalomaniac with possibly several other personality disorders, but that just my opinion.

Finally, because I know BL crowd wants “receipts”, a little article
https://www.ciu.edu/allah-islam-same-yahweh-christianity
Most important quotes(in italics)from the article:

Apparently (Allah) was one of the 360 gods worshipped in the ka’aba in Mecca, and was the chief god for the Quraysh tribe, which was the tribe Muhammad belonged to. In the pre-Islamic time, Allah had three daughters, Al-At, Al-Uzza, and Al-Manat. In Muhammad’s campaign against polytheism he chose Allah as the one true God and rejected the notion that Allah could have any daughters or sons

Allah is a distant, remote being who reveals his will but not himself. It is impossible to know him in a personal way. In his absolute oneness there is unity but not trinity, and because of this lack of relationship, love is not emphasized. Indeed, for the Muslim, Allah cannot have any associates. In fact, to claim that Jesus is God’s son is the greatest of all sins in Islam and is known as “shirk.” Allah is also an arbitrary God and is said to deceive people, especially unbelievers. In the end, even for the devout Muslim there is no guarantee of salvation

(It’s only my opinion again, but sounds like almost total opposite of Christian God)

We also find that the Bible portrays Yahweh in contrast to Allah. For example, Allah is considered to be too holy to have personal relationships with man, but Yahweh is often described as a loving God interested in our personal struggles. Yahweh is also depicted as unchanging and One who assures the salvation of the faithful

Muslims deny that Jesus died on the cross and they reject the belief in his resurrection from the dead. Only a triune God, defined as one essence and three persons, could become incarnate and still remain God of the universe, and yet this is the God that Muslims reject

Right, so the same God who sent Jesus, who then later resurrected from dead, told Mohammad a different version of events??? Because this is what Muslims believe, that God dictated (I’m not sure if that’s the best word, but doesn’t matter) Qur’an to him. So presumably Mohammed must have had “direct line” to God, yet wasn’t told the correct version of events???

And of course many said that Allah just means “God” in Arabic. Here’s an answer to that

Actually, when the Arabic Christians refer to “Allah” in their translation of the Bible, they believe that “Allah” is the father of Jesus and they believe that “Allah” is triune. Therefore, the Allah of the Arabic Christians cannot be the same Allah of the Muslims

So I guess it’s the same as me calling Zeus a god

@Terry_Sampson

@marta, have you seen my unicorn around here?

A whole field of them

[T_aquaticus]

@Terry_Sampson

I think you’d have to actually believe in a god to wrap your head around my claim that “wrong descriptions” means exactly that: “a different entity”.

I did believe in God at one point in my life, so it isn’t that much of a stretch.

I believed in Jesus and the gospel message of the New Testament. I also knew that Jews did not believe in that message. However, I still thought we believed in the same God. At the time, I didn’t understand the tenets of Islam, but knowing those now I would have thought of Islam as a third form of belief in the same God during the time when I was a believer.

So yes, we disagree on this point, but that’s fine. The world would be a boring place if everyone agreed with me.

[T_aquaticus]

@marta

It makes no sense to me that this analogy should apply to God. So God decides to treat people completely different in different geographical locations? That would make Him psychopathic megalomaniac with possibly several other personality disorders, but that just my opinion.

I was trying to describe a situation where people have different descriptions of the same person.

@marta

Allah is a distant, remote being who reveals his will but not himself. It is impossible to know him in a personal way. In his absolute oneness there is unity but not trinity, and because of this lack of relationship, love is not emphasized. Indeed, for the Muslim, Allah cannot have any associates. In fact, to claim that Jesus is God’s son is the greatest of all sins in Islam and is known as “shirk.” Allah is also an arbitrary God and is said to deceive people, especially unbelievers. In the end, even for the devout Muslim there is no guarantee of salvation

In Judaism there is no trinity and God does not have a son. Does this mean that Jews and Christians believe in a different God?

[Terry_Sampson]

• According to Genesis 12:4, Abraham had a nephew named Lot, who went north, into Canaan, with Abraham and his wife, Sarah.
• After a series of events, including the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and Lot’s wife turning into a pillar of salt, Lot’s two daughters, despairing of never getting husbands, agreed to get their father drunk and both, according to Genesis 19:36, got pregnant producing sons: Moab, “the father of the Moabites”, and Ben-Ammi, “the father of the Ammonites”,
• The Moabites and the Ammonites were historical “nations”.

• The fact that Israel acknowledged an ancestral kinship with both isn’t surprising, but all three “worshiped” different gods: Israel worshiped Yahweh, the Ammonites worshiped El, Milkom, and a moon god; and the Moabites worshiped Chemosh.
• “The biblical narrative has traditionally been considered literal fact, but is now generally interpreted as recording a gross popular irony by which the Israelites expressed their loathing of the morality of the Moabites and Ammonites. It has been doubted, however, whether the Israelites would have directed such irony to Lot himself, particularly because incest was not explicitly forbidden or stigmatized until the Book of Leviticus, i.e. centuries after the time of Abraham and Lot.”
• So just what is “the Abrahamic religion” that Jews, Christians, and Muslims are supposed ti share? Circumcision? Animal sacrifice?

[marta]

@T_aquaticus

In Judaism there is no trinity and God does not have a son. Does this mean that Jews and Christians believe in a different God?

I’m probably the wrong person to ask about the Trinity, as to me it isn’t that important - certainly not as important as other differences quoted from the article.
As to the matter of Jesus being the Son of God - the difference here is that Jews didn’t realise what’s happened, when it happened. Whilst the Muslims came into existence several centuries later and claim their main prophet had a direct word of God revealed (dictated? inspired?) to him. So it’s rather weird God would deny Jesus as his Son.

[Terry_Sampson]

As well as the fact the the Qur’an and Islam deny that Jesus died on the Cross. Jews’ Yahweh had nothing to do with it; Christians’ Yahweh either saw it or was on the cross in Jesus, and Islam’s Allah said it never happened.

[T_aquaticus]

@marta

As to the matter of Jesus being the Son of God - the difference here is that Jews didn’t realise what’s happened, when it happened.

I was thinking about modern day Jews as well. They have surely heard about Christianity and the claims it makes.

While I was a Christian, I never doubted that Christians and Jews believed in the same God in spite of the theological differences. This indicates to me that there can be irreconcilable theological differences between groups that believe in the same God.

@marta

Whilst the Muslims came into existence several centuries later and claim their main prophet had a direct word of God revealed (dictated? inspired?) to him. So it’s rather weird God would deny Jesus as his Son.

Jews probably view the Koran the same way they view the New Testament. Both were late comers to the party.

[Mervin_Bitikofer]

@Terry_Sampson

deny that Jesus died on the Cross. Jews’ Yahweh had nothing to do with it; …

Well - so a whole lot of people and entire groups can be wrong about God - a point that @T_aquaticus has been patiently making. In fact we should hope that a lot of people (including Christians) are wrong about God. Because some Christians insist God is a God who rejoices in violence, vengeance, and wrath since that is what they say they find in the pages of the old testament.

But any time a group refers to the Creator of … everything … they would be speaking of God, however incorrectly or badly they may be doing so. Paul certainly granted that same latitude … he even granting that a pagan statue to “an unknown god” can be recognized as referring to the true God he was preaching.

[Terry_Sampson]

@Mervin_Bitikofer

a point that @T_aquaticus has been patiently making.

• Let’s say everybody’s wrong about what God is and don’t even agree on what to call him. You’re seem to be saying: whatever the thing is that created everything, regardless how any of us describe that thing, the simple fact is that we’re all acknowledging and talking, or disagreeing, about the same thing?

[Mervin_Bitikofer]

@Terry_Sampson

the simple fact is that we’re all acknowledging and talking, or disagreeing, about the same thing?

That’s right. I’m just trying to select the one thing that monotheists everywhere would be mostly likely to agree on even if they disagree on just about everything else … that one true God would be the Creator. And that is certainly what Christians believe God to be. So if somebody refers to the Creator of the cosmos and all that is in it … they’re talking about God as far as I’m concerned. And whether they refer to “the Lord” in any language other than English ( … for example, the Arabic “Allah” … is all immaterial to me.) I’m not going to insist that they must speak English before I can acknowledge that they and I are talking about God.

[Terry_Sampson]

Ultimately, IMO, you’re saying: who ever believes in an “Uncaused Cause” believes in God, regardless what he or she calls it and regardless what other stuff they say about it, including what anyone thinks the Uncaused Cause caused, right?
.

[heymike3]

Depends on whether the uncaused cause is believed to be aware of its action

[T_aquaticus]

@Terry_Sampson

Let’s say everybody’s wrong about what God is and don’t even agree on what to call him.

At least three religious traditions agree that they believe in the same God Abraham believed in (at least they claim that, as is being discussed). Abraham’s God is described as being the creator of everything, so that would seem to be at least one aspect that all three agree on.

I don’t see how this changes if the names LORD (using the Christian representation of the name that shall not be named), Allah, or God are used. There are at least 5 names used for God in Jewish tradition.

Names of God in Judaism – Wiki

The specific name for God seems to be the least controversial concept being discussed.

[Mervin_Bitikofer]

@Terry_Sampson

Ultimately, IMO, you’re saying: who ever believes in an “Uncaused Cause” believes in God, regardless what he or she calls it and regardless what other stuff they say about it, …

My experience is more attuned to the Abrahamic religions - all of whom tend to think of the Creator as being something - somebody rather - with conscious agency and will. I’ll try not to presume how those discussing potentially philosophically sterile things such as “uncaused causes” wish to think of that ‘original thing’. Whether or not they prefer God language for that is for them to answer. But should they do so - their conception of that wouldn’t be contradictory to what I imagine or think of God. Just a lot less there than what Christians feel has been revealed.

On a related aside … I like the way a recent author put it (was it Chesterton? or Lewis? or MacDonald?) - whatever words we use to describe God will automatically be short of the mark - and therefore idolatrous to some extent. But obviously words are one powerful thing we have to work with, so obviously Moses, the prophets, the apostles - Christ Himself indulge us in that necessary accomodation to disciple us closer. But I should hope that my not being right about everything of God wouldn’t then mean I’m not thinking of or praying to God!

[Terry_Sampson]

@T_aquaticus

At least three religious traditions agree that they believe in the same God Abraham believed in

• So what? The same three believe in Adam, Noah, Moses, David, and Jesus believed in God, too. If you’re looking for the “biggest tribe” building starting point, as Jon Levenson points out ,why not start with Adam?
• Correct me if I’m wrong, but from where I sit, it sure looks like only Jesus was the appointed spokesperson among humans to show us what your God-by-any-name was like. Judaism’s believes in Yahweh and rejects Jesus, and Islam’s Qur’an and Muslim deny that Jesus died on the cross.
• You seem to think that I’m really hung up God’s “name”, and I’m really not. But I distinguish between names for a reason, otherwise I’d be saying “God” exhibiits a multiple personality syndrome: On the one hand God didn’t send Jesus, or God did send Jesus who didn’t die on a cross, or on the other hand God did send Jesus who did die on a cross, was resurrected, then ascended into heaven.
• Here, let’s do this. Skip all the names and just distinguish between the personalities this way:
  • Entity #1 was a buddy of Abraham’s;
  • Entity #2 was a buddy of Abraham’s and the Jesus who died on the cross; and
  • Entity #3 was a buddy of Abraham’s and the Jesus who didn’t die on the cross.
• Now, I ask: which Entity description comes closest to reality? #1, #2, or #3?
• If you say #1 or #3 or all of them or none of them, then you’re wrong, you’re not in my tribe, I won’t worship with you in this world, and there’s nothing left to talk about in this thread. Time to find something else to talk about.