Charismatic Christians are a diverse lot. It is difficult or fruitlessly wrong to try to put them into a box.
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- Get a big box for the Catholic Charismatic Renewal communities.
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Iâll note that the categories can to some extent be mixed and matched. What came to mind while reading the chart was that I once new a (rather small) group of university students who held to day-age but also evolution and were soft deists since they believed that only very rarely did God bother with actually doing anything within Creation. They were the cause of more than a few heated arguments among the Campus Crusade for Christ community since their views definitely didnât fit the dominant YEC view nor anyone elseâs.
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Or old and constantly worn out.
I actually came across mention of a Charismatic Orthodox congregation. It was fascinating to see how they slotted the various gifts into ancient categories of ministry; one thing that really struck me was how the function of deacons got cranked backwards towards the âwaiting on tablesâ office in Acts and absorbed a number of different gifts.
One point that was made fit well with what Iâve experienced as far as the spiritual gifts: many of them donât fit with an office of ministry but are âdistributed by the Spirit as He willsâ, so a person might function with a certain gift one week then never again â and sometimes the Spirit distributes a gift to someone just enough to get a certain lessons across!
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Right, itâs not as gifts cannot change and as well with time of life. (I remember having gotten the impression if someone would ask âWhatâs your gift?â that was it and it could not change.)
I used to have two songbooks from them that vanished when I loaned my guitar out once, along with my InterVarsity Christian Fellowship songbook. The loss of those is one big reason I no longer play.
Old denominations have tried to channel revivals to human-controlled phenomena, with ordained âprofessionalsâ (clergy) to take care of the gifts and service. Maybe for this reason, we seldom see revivals that start and become stronger within these old denominations, and the pentecostal movement has become the number one form of Christianity outside of Europe and North America.
Within pentecostals, there is much distrust against the old denominations that have divided the followers of Christ to clergy and laypersons, and added many doctrines and rules to those that were mentioned in the biblical scriptures. No matter what is our attitude to the doctrines and rules of the old denominations, to get the trust of pentecostals, the persons telling about the possible interpretations of Genesis should come from outside of the old denominations. Possible exceptions are those who are used by God so that miracles and signs confirm the preached word - if a person has been chosen by God and miracles and signs associated with the preaching of the scriptures witness it, that gives credibility among pentecostals.
Yes, as far as,I can tell, my wife has had
- the gift of interpretation of tongues once
- a prophetic utterance once
- several prophetic dreams and
- a word of knowledge a time or two.
That is in all our years of marriage, and we started our 50th year last month.
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And often times we see God leading us in places that we are not gifted, in order to emphasize our dependence on him. Moses was an example, being a poor orator.
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Excellent comment! Thank you. When I deliver this lecture and chart, I tell people that they can select and combine categories. This creates a sixth category and moves us further from the dichotomy (which is the problem).
BTW, if you guys want me to do a Zoom on this lecture, Iâm happy to do so some evening. Just ask.
Blessings,
Denis
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Thank you for your offer. I love your chart, as it covers more than similar charts I have seen. Having done your course years ago (for non-credit) i realize that this is just an introduction to the subject, but it is on the level where many of our fellow Christians with questions on the subject can relate. It doesnât address directly the subject of concordance, though touched on in last line addressing interpretation, but opens the door to that discussion through that topic.
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For JPM and St.Roymond â Thanks for the reading suggestion. I will definitely check out The Manifold Beauty of Genesis One: A Multi-Layered Approach. And just a minor, technical clarification, I did not mean to suggest that Mesopotamian mythology was the the only mythology rebutted by Genesis but in referencing Gen. 1-11, I regrettably failed to address the issue of Egyptian mythology primarily due to not as much reading on the subject. Iâve heard viewpoints and podcasts on Gen. 1 and its rebuttal of Egyptian mythology and have no disagreement without further reading. Within Waltonâs recent book on the Lost World of Adam and Eve is a reference to a paper by Richard S. Hess, Splitting the Adam which does a nifty job of describing the use of Adam in Gen 1 from a âuniversalâ viewpoint of âmankindâ and âhumansâ, Gen. 2 from a âtypeâ or âclassâ of man and Gen. 3 as a continuation of the âclassâ with the possibility of a specific man pointing to the Sumerian use of âlugalâ or âgreat manâ with the Hebrew use of âthe manâ suggesting the possibility that âthe manâ of Gen. 3 was a particular priest or leader for a group of people. Gen. 3 and subsequent chapters fascinate me not only from a standpoint of possibly rebutting Mesopotamian mythology, but also the uncanny archaelogical/historical developments which seem to align with the highly symbolic Genesis narratives and the timelines set forth by Ussher and the Seder Olam (excluding creation of the earth and the first human of course). I look forward to reading The Manifold Beauty. Thanks again.
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You and I should have talked months ago. Your observations will be address in my new book titled Reflections in Genesis. I agree that Genesis needs to be taught and understood in light of evidence now known but not avaialble to the original Genesis writers. Even when considerd within this modern analysis the basic Christian theology that Adam brougfht sin into the world and that Jesus took away the sins of the world is maintained. Publication is in progress so check www.toknowwithcertainty for availability in about two months.
Agreed. I also think of your observations about Cain in an opposite manner. Cainâs activities when combined with other evidence helps approximate a window in which Adam would have lived. I address this in my new book Reflections on Genesis due to be out in about 2 months. You can track it on www.toknowwithcertainty.com. Thanks for your thoughts.
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That sounds just like something I observed widely among Pentecostals: all too many are constantly seeking after signs.
Except that clergy were instituted by the Apostles, both priests and bishops. Yes, priests are found in the New Testament; the word is just a corruption of âpresbyterâ down through at least three languages.
As for âlaityâ, that was not initially opposed to "clergy; it just means âthe peopleâ. I wrote a paper noting that one who was not âlaityâ could not be âclergyâ since the laity are all the people of God and was one of three the professor selected to be read to the entire class , with question period after â I think the first such presentation I ever made that I actually enjoyed doing. Alas, Iâve forgotten the whole thing save that main point!
Well, I wasnât talking about any denominations. And since ârevivalsâ canât be found in the writings of the apostles, they should be channeled â indeed Paulâs instruction that there should be only two or three who speak in tongues during worship is a bit of âchannelingâ, along with the stricture that there should always be an interpretation.
All those offices in the ancient church were the church acknowledging that the Spirit chooses who He wills, and that the Spirit is not an author of disorder. The only mistake I can see is that the Spirit also doesnât necessarily operate with the same people continually but will give some people a gift for a season or a week or even just once.
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This reminds me of a certain widely-known Charismatic preacher who once commented that he had heard well over ten thousand supposed instances of speaking in tongues but had to admit that given what Paul has to say about it there were only two or three that were valid.
Humans like to get gifts and tend to react like having a shiny new toy, when there is no promise that just because the Spirit chooses one to exercise a certain gift once doesnât mean it will ever happen again. And humans like to get puffed up about the gifts distributed to them, which in my view is one reason that Pentecostals and Charismatics are so emphatic that everyone has to speak in tongues or theyâre not saved â which is contrary to Paulâs writings in more way than one â and act as though being able to speak in tongues is evidence they are saved. A big problem with that attitude is that speaking in tongues can be found among Mormons and other heretical groups plus Hindus and Buddhists, which is a big reason that Paulâs strictures be adhered to! Itâs a gift that is easily counterfeited and has in fact been observed among agnostics and atheists.
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There are different tasks in the church and there is a need for some sort of leadership. The Acts give the impression that the apostles/missionaries (apostle in the sense of someone sent) appointed âeldersâ as the leaders of a local church they had started. According to what I have read, the use of the names âpresbyterosâ and âepiskoposâ was often mixed, both names could be used from the same persons (we could call them âeldersâ). That seemed to be the situation also in Rome. Later the use of the titles âpresbyterosâ and âepiskoposâ separated, and the leadership of local churches turned from the joint leadership of elders to the leadership of a single head, with the title âepiskoposâ (overseer/bishop). This lead stepwise to the current system of bishops and priest, and in some denominations, to a hierarchy with additional âtopâ titles.
It could be said that there is nothing intrinsically wrong in having leading bishops and priests. The problems start if it is forgotten that in Christ, we believers are all priests. Appointed bishops and priests differ only in the respect that they have been given the responsibility to lead (shepherd) the congregation/church. Otherwise, all members of the church should be viewed equal in front of God, and it should be fully acceptable that any member of the church can for example, distribute the Holy Communion or baptize. For the sake of unity in the congregation, it is often expected that baptisms happen with the consent of the leader but even that is more of a practical guideline than a doctrinal issue. There is nothing holier in a church than the members of Christ, the believers.
I know that some denominations teach in a different way but I assume that most pentecostal churches would agree with the above. As this thread discusses especially about communication with pentecostals, that needs to be remembered.
Another matter is that many pentecostals are not very doctrinal, they are more interested about the acts and guidance of the Holy Spirit today than what theologians ponder in their chambers or what kind of decisions church councils have made. They keep the biblical teachings as they understand them but rely more on what the Holy Spirit opens from the scriptures than what theologians think about the texts.
Although that may describe many pentecostals, a growing proportion of pentecostals are seriously interested about proper interpretation of the scriptures and theology. A growing proportion of leaders have gone through a theological seminar and are therefore better equipped to deal with theological questions.
- Quite possibly because they donât see many in non-pentecostal churches, where thereâs just one ox or mule doing all the talking. In the catholic charismatic renewal prayer meetings, a group of elders monitored the course of a two or three hour gathering of community âregularsâ only a very few of whom were prophets or teachers or musicians, prophets encouraged and very rarely predicted specific events, and the only time one spoke of âthe importance of venerating my motherâ was when the guy in the raincoat from the library came. No community regular prophesied or taught âsoul sleepâ or young earth creationism or evolution or Einsteinâs relativity or Quantum physics. Just words of balm for the broken and wounded and teaching for defective saints and exiles. Prayer petitions were welcomed from anyone, and there were no "teaching momentsâ for the littlest children âup frontâ or âoral theological treatisesâ or debates. And yet, there was order and flow. And any âword in tonguesâ that was spoken to the whole community in tongues was interpreted or rang false and everyone knew it.
- In the charismatic community that I was part of, every weekly prayer meeting was a revival meeting; every bi-weekly covenanted prayer meeting was communal event, until the fans of âclosed communionâ interfered and ended interdenominational Communion.
- The only time everybody in the community was together more than one day was when they went on a three or more day retreat at some convent or monastery.
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I agree with almost everything you wrote, although I would like to point out that only some charismatic/Pentecostals say all believers should speak in tongues and that the gift of tongues is evidence of salvation. Others recognize the diversity of gifts.
In Acts 1, Jesus said âBut you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.â
This indicates the evidence of the Holy Spirit is power to be a witness.
I had a discussion about this with a Church of God pastor. I almost had to tie him up to get him to admit Billy Graham was filled with the Spirit. Graham certainly had power to be a witness.
Another error that I have seen in charismatic churches is the assertion that God heals all sick people who have enough faith. One pastor had a difficult time when his kids asked him to pray for the resurrection of their dead family dog.
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