Study in Nature shoots down three basic claims of evolutionary theory

Thank you for this information. I accept that Lenski’s bugs demonstrate evolution in action. (It’s what I would call microevolution, although apparently that term isn’t part of a biologist’s lexicon.)

I think part of my problem is, I’ve spent too much time debating online with atheists who accept evolution, but aren’t scientists. I suspect they trot out scientific arguments that aren’t necessarily professional. Such atheists have taught me quite a bit, but some of it may also be erroneous and be inspired by emotion rather than correct science. Or perhaps I’ve simply misunderstood their views.

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Sorry, but there ain’t no such thing. Every fact, apart from simple sense impressions, exists only as a statement in a story, a story that humans have constructed to make sense of their world. Some you construct unconsciously – object permanence, the existence of other people – and some are constructed consciously and collectively. But they’re all part of stories – historical facts, geographic facts, scientific facts, all of them. If you’re using a computer and communicating by internet, you’re relying on theoretical stories that scientists have constructed. Your problem isn’t with stories rather than facts: it’s that you don’t like some of the stories, so you feel entitled to reject them out of hand.[quote=“Dredge, post:68, topic:35830”]
Lots of repetitions of the mantra, “only evolution can explain this” always come in handy, too.
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A gibe that would be more telling if you could offer something other than evolution to explain the data. You’re actually mocking people for accepting the best explanation available, when you have nothing better to give them?
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Thank you, Steve, for pointing out my mistakes and the shortcomings in my thinking.

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I’m not a YEC; I’m an OEC.

Oh, this is just a creationist having trouble imagining egg-laying birds and bats having a common ancestor. It’s much easier for me to imagine God creating such diverse creatures “in the beginning”.

@Dredge

Since any change in the genetics of a population is evolution, it would seem only YEC’s have a pressing need to differentiate between kinds of Evolution:

They champion Micro- vs. Macro- Evolution… and even supposedly which direction the Evolution is going with Evolution vs. Devolution.

Biologists don’t use these terms for several reasons:

A) It’s impossible to qualify an Evolutionary change as “up” or “down” because it is frequently an aesthetic judgment or some other qualitative decision whether a change is a positive one or not.

For example, the genetic trait for Sickle Cell blood was usually characterized as a negative trait, until it was discovered that populations subjected to chronic malarial outbreaks did better with the sickle cell trait than without. So is that Evo? Or Devo? Just because someone gives a word to a concept doesn’t mean it’s a valid concept.

The same problem on Micro- vs. Macro-. For the notorious case of the Alaska vs. Florida rabbits… if the Alaska rabbit were to develop a genetic trait that allowed it to stay warmer, but which also made it difficult to prosper in the sub-tropical USA … you would be tempted to say that is just “Adaptation”, right? So you would want to call it Micro-Evolution.

But what if the same constellation of changes was also responsible for making Alaska rabbits unable to produce fertile offspring with Florida rabbits (assuming they were close enough to do so) … this is essentially Speciation… you could even use the notorious term “Gradualism”… for this kind of speciation and any other example of Ring Speciation.

So … is the change Micro- or Macro-? Is it both? Ring Species prove the lie to the whole artificial barrier between Micro and Macro evolution.

So all of this is a lot of “jabber” for not much value …

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I’m asking why you think vertical gradualism should imply horizontal gradualism. From your lack of an answer, I have to conclude that you don’t actually have a reason.

Thank you. While I must admit to having NEVER in my life worried about or read about things like “cohesion complex members,” the overall import of this is interesting – and yes I know that I was created. My parents slept together, so there was a “biological component” to it, but God created that too.

Right. My bad.:flushed:

I’m glad you ask! If both theories make the exact same predictions, if your variety of creationism predicts that life will be most parsimoniously organized in a ‘tree of life’ shape, with predictable distance between organisms and their DNA according to how long ago they ‘supposedly diverged,’ then the better part of my complaint against ‘science-deniers’ dissipates. This would leave you in some version of omphalos, as the tree of life looks very much like it traces lines of descent, but I would have no beef with it.

If the predictions are not identical, then we have to look at both theories and go with whichever one makes more accurate predictions than the other. So for creationism to be taken seriously, it has to make predictions that evolution does not. For the record, well-meaning people have been attempting this for the past hundred and fifty years without success. In the modern day when we can directly compare DNA sequences between species and they look like the kinds of patterns we would expect to see from common descent, where non-functional DNA sequences are the same between closely related species and we can even trace the genetic trails of viruses that inserted themselves into our DNA in the distant past, it seems highly unlikely that a theory of created ‘kinds’ could make the kinds of predictions it would have to. Even the most basic prediction: life falls into a finite number of separate, unrelated types. Nobody is willing to give a number or say for sure what is a kind and what is not. I’ve looked at attempts at ‘baraminology’ and modern day versions are very careful to hedge their bets and not commit too firmly to what they’re saying because of how many times they’ve been wrong in the past.

But maybe there are accurate predictions that could be made by creationism and not evolution. I would love to see them, if possible.

Incidentally, when I was looking up gliding creatures, did you know that flying squid are a thing? I did not!

Anyways, back to the birds and the bats. It’s true that the putative common ancestor would have lived a long time ago: more than 300 million years, and looked a lot like a lizard. As tempting as it is to get caught up in all the differences, there’s also a lot of similarities. Both birds and bats have digestive tracts, spines, ribs, four limbs with broadly similar bone structure, lungs, blood, hearts, sexual reproduction, and lots of other commonalities. All that stuff evolved before the shift to living on land happened, and it’s all more similar in the way it’s coded for by DNA than it would have to be if common ancestry were not true.

I read Genesis over and over a few months ago, and it didn’t say anything about ‘fixity of species,’ this idea that there are invisible barriers between microevolution and macroevolution, that kinds could evolve so far and no farther. All it says is that God created (told the sea and land to bring forth) every kind (or all kinds, or according to their kinds, or after their kind) of animal (and plant, and bird, and fish).

Since God created everything anyway, there is no contradiction. Even supposing that it is a requirement that animals reproduce only their own kind, that is still not a conflict with evolution: contrary to oft-repeated claims, evolution never expects a rat to give birth to any other species. Every creature in the history of life has reproduced the same kind of animal as its parents (assuming it reproduced at all) because the changes from generation to generation are so minor.

But reading creationist commentaries on Genesis, they really put much more into the text than it says. They proclaim that it means all this other stuff that it simply doesn’t say, about species having inviolable boundaries between kinds, which simply can’t be pointed to in the real world.

I appreciate your response, even though I’m sure you have an enormous number of replies to get to on these forums! Discussing this kind of stuff is fascinating, and I’m always learning more as I go!

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Independent of what?[quote=“NonlinOrg, post:101, topic:35830”]
But isn’t the predator doing the selection? Someone (intelligent organisms) does, not the so-called and impersonal “natural selection”.
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Are you saying that these species are not a part of nature?[quote=“NonlinOrg, post:101, topic:35830”]
All failed. Pick your favorite and let’s discuss.
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Pick one and show how it failed.

It isn’t an assumption. It is a conclusion supported by evidence, such as the hominid fossil record:

Do you understand that your cousins are not your grandparents? Yes or no?

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Sorry for the double reply:

No one is saying that one mechanism is the whole theory.[quote=“NonlinOrg, post:101, topic:35830”]
What is “very limited interbreeding”? Bonus: you get to define “speciation” as you please.
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Speciation is defined by the divergence of the gene pools of two populations. Once you start getting different mutations accumulating in different populations, then you have incipient speciation. Even with limited interbreeding this divergence can still occur. Speciation is defined by this divergence, not by the amount of interbreeding.[quote=“NonlinOrg, post:101, topic:35830”]
No! “Shared genetics” only demonstrates “shared genetics”. Fossils may belong to independent third party and definitely none looks like ancestors of the chimp. Sorry, until you get a human from a chimp in the lab, you’re only imagining the “descendance”.
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The nested hierarchy of shared genetics does evidence common ancestry since that is the pattern we observe common ancestry producing. It isn’t simply shared features but a nested hierarchy of shared derived features. For the fossil record, we only see the mixture of features that evolution predicts we should see, and we don’t see any of the mixtures of features that the theory says we should not see. For example, the theory of evolution predicts that we should see fossils and species with a mixture of human and ape features. The theory also predicts that we should not see a mixture of human and bird features, and we don’t. Only the theory of evolution predicts that we should see a nested hierarchy, and only a nested hierarchy for species that don’t participate in a significant amount of horizontal genetic transfer.[quote=“NonlinOrg, post:101, topic:35830”]
Darwinism pretends to be Scientific …despite the fact that there is no Science separate from Religion Philosophy, Religion, and Science – NonLin. Is Francis Collins not fallible human too?
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Here are 29 reasons demonstrating that evolution is scientific:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

You were the one using the names of those lineages.

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More likely, merely different alleles. New mutations contribute an infintesimal amount of inherited variation to each generation.

But what, in your mind, prevents micro from becoming macro?

Please limit your discussion to mechanisms.

The fixation or loss of alleles present in the ancestral population can also be a part of incipient speciation. This can occur with limited interbreeding, but not with free interbreeding.

The miscommunication between scientists and creationists is that scientists are looking at the results while creationists are focused on interbreeding. Scientists are looking for divergence of gene pools. If there is no interbreeding or limited interbreeding, it doesn’t matter since speciation isn’t defined by those things. Rather, speciation is defined by the genetic effects it has on those populations.

OK, I’ll go with not all models are stochastic/gradualistic. But every scientific discipline does have stochastic models that are expressed mathematically in the same way that population genetics and phylogenetic models are expressed in biology. That’s what I was trying to say. I do appreciate your help in making my statement clearer.

If you’re interested in further investigation, here’s a standard textbook from the year 2000 on the subject, Stochastic Processes in Physics, Chemistry, and Biology. From the back cover:

The credit for acquiring all the deep insights and powerful methods is due mainly to a handful of physicists and mathematicians: Einstein, Smoluchowski, Langevin, Wiener, Stratonovich, etc. Hence it is no surprise that until recently the bulk of basic and applied stochastic research was devoted to purely mathematical and physical questions. However, in the last decade we have witnessed an enormous growth of results achieved in other sciences - especially chemistry and biology - based on applying methods of stochastic processes.

I wouldn’t say “can also be a part of,” I’d say it’s the primary mechanism underlying incipient speciation, unless we are talking about haploids. But when we are dealing with evolution deniers, the focus is almost always diploids like us.

The unwarranted emphasis on new mutations causes enormous problems in both communication and understanding.

You might want to read that quote again. It’s not saying what you think it is.

Your theory predicts nothing whatsoever, but this was said and shown before. Several times.
You keep going in circles and getting dizzy. I am not interested, so good luck with that.

Now that I got your attention, maybe you want to take some time and think over this gradualism thing again? Please don’t rush. While you’re at it, and since you mentioned stochastic processes, maybe you also want to take another look at random abuse: http://nonlin.org/random-abuse/ . Thanks.

Sorry, @NonlinOrg, but repeating your erroneous assertion “several times” doesn’t make it true. Several researchers have told you that they use the predictive quality of evolution every day in their work.

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Either you have reproducible examples or you don’t. But make sure you don’t confuse evolution with genetics or any other unrelated field.

Genetic limitations. That’s about as specific as this layman can get.