STEM skills and job success- not what you may think

Education Forum
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If your child is gifted, I would resist cookiecutter answers like this. It really depends on the kid. For me, I did worse when they kept me at the same level. I was just bored out of my mind. I did better as they let me go further, and I was rewarded for it. It really depends on the kid. If he has mastered the easy things, it can suck the joy out of learning to force him to repeat things over and over.

Speaking of soft skill,s do what you can to encourage him to NOT get arrogant, especially because might outperform your daughter. Remind them both that different people are good at different things.

Finally, one thing that really helped me was reading about the stories of scientists and mathematicians. Just a few books that had a big impact on me:

https://www.amazon.com/Mits-Wits-Logic-Lillian-Lieber/dp/0393063275

https://www.amazon.com/One-Two-Three-Infinity-Speculations/dp/0486256642/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1515007267&sr=8-12&keywords=infinity

https://www.amazon.com/Flatland-Romance-Dimensions-Edwin-Abbott/dp/1420954229/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1515007373&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=flatland&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/Advice-Young-Investigator-MIT-Press/dp/0262681501

https://www.amazon.com/Einsteins-Dreams-Alan-Lightman/dp/140007780X

https://www.amazon.com/Golden-Ratio-Worlds-Astonishing-Number/dp/0767908163/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_t_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=5K0938EEPNX1SGFTZY3R

https://www.amazon.com/Zero-Biography-Dangerous-Charles-Seife/dp/0140296476

There were also a few books i read at a high school level on Einstein’s Relativity that were really formative. Can’t find then, but this could be interesting:

https://www.amazon.com/Introducing-Relativity-Graphic-Bruce-Bassett/dp/1848310579/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1515007943&sr=1-1-fkmr1&keywords=visual+guide+to+relativity

Initially math can be attractive because their is a definitive answer. In the long run, it becomes most attractive when we understand the extent of the open questions and the creativity it demands of us. As someone else mentioned, math/science really requires us to become accustomed to failure, and to learn how to persist through it. Hearing about the stories of failure that other have had, and their slow progress to knowledge is really helpful. Also, these books are easy enough to follow that you will certainly be able to read along and talk with him about it.

I agree with taht [quote=“Jay313, post:25, topic:37561”]
@Mervin_Bitikofer was right about gifted kids often being bored by the pace of traditional classes.
[/quote]

That is a very important point. In particular, its not just the “advanced” maths that are important. Geometry is surprisingly important as the first time that kids are expected to do proofs. That is critically important training. Certainly do not skip things because he does find them as interesting.

Regarding calculus, I would not necessarily put him calculus class immediately. But letting him read the stories of how it was developed might have a really positive effect. At last sometimes. Building anticipation on what he will be learning soon.

Excel is nice. But show him python tool. Python rocks more. =)

This website is great:

http://repl.it/repls

Hope that’s helpful. Do not worry to much about “screwing” it up either. Ultimately, he will have to learn in college the key things for real. At this stage you are just laying that well-rounded foundation.

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I’m just chuckling over the ratings this turn of words would get from the politically correct overlords. I think I can hear klaxons going off somewhere! You give great advice, Dr. Swamidass --and sometimes very enjoyable typos. You might want to edit the above and get the intended ‘not’ where you want it!

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All due respect to the professors in the building, but they know next to nothing about pedagogy. The articles are essentially correct. Again, let your boy explore whatever he wants to explore on his free time. Find ways to connect his interests to what you are currently studying, but don’t let his interests dictate your curriculum. This is especially important in math, where skills and understanding must be built layer upon layer. Resist the urge to skip ahead. You’re more likely to do harm than good.

Khan Academy is a good resource, though you’re probably already aware of it. Here is a nice search engine for lesson plans that might be of use. One of the best sites is Illuminations, by the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics. Plenty of ideas there.

Good luck!

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That is kind of the beauty of the Art of Problem Solving textbooks. There are no easy things. No drill. Just introduce a concept and then apply the concept in increasingly creative and complex ways the kid hasn’t seen before. They are written for independent study for kids who do math competitions, not for use in schools. (But they have added a market with homeschoolers) But the philosophy is that gifted kids shouldn’t breeze through an easy algebra program and then breeze through an easy geometry program. They should be exposed to the hardest things algebra has to offer and really be forced to wrestle with the topic before moving on to the next thing. It’s a good fit.

I assume you mean not get arrogant? Yes, this is a challenge. We have thought about not keeping them together, but in the end I think it’s best for both of them. It’s good for my son to have to explain how he got answers to my daughter (He is terrible at the “show your work” component, but getting better. We’ve moved beyond “The answer is 4 because it’s obvious and nothing else makes sense.”) It’s good that she sometimes gets things right that he gets wrong. And it’s good for her to have the competition, even though it is frustrating for her sometimes. She is very good at math for her age, just not a prodigy.

Thanks for the book recommendations! Flatland is like my husband’s all-time favorite book from when he was a kid. I’ll check out the other ones. My son loved the biography of Nathaniel Bowditch we read together. (He advanced the science of navigation and was completely self-taught.)

He’s done some of the Python tutorials at Code Academy. But I think he and his friend are into JavaScript at the moment because they have some big plan they are working on. I can’t keep up with the computer stuff.

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Excel still has the best user interface for a lot of work. It’s not the best graphing program but for its versatility, it’s pretty awesome. I’ve seen some attempts to integrate Python programming with Excel but it’s a bit of a hodge-podge. I’d second the recommendation on Python as a language to learn. I’m trying to encourage the use of Jupyter (Python-integrated, formerly iPython?) notebooks for scientists at work. It works fine with R as well. Right now we’ve got way too many tools in various languages. A scientist will develop a useful application but too few will understand all the ins and outs of the particular programming environment to support or modify the work. As expected, this drives IT/IS crazy because they ultimately end up supporting junk we cobble together.

Ultimately, we’ll need computers with sufficient AI to create programs from basic specifications and save us from our own cruft.

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Could be, but that eventuality is decades in the future.

The most likely outcome IMHO will be a decreasing emphasis on code hacking accompanied by an explosion of higher order use of code generation and analytical tools. Just as over the past 40 years the decline of punch card operations was accompanied by an explosion of code hacking.

Chris

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I thought that about self-driving cars. :slight_smile:

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You know, I do not know of anyone working in AI that believes that. That is what I have PhD in. I am not concerned at all about being replaced by a computer. The languages and abstractions will change. In my career, they have several times already. However it will always require competent people to make use of the languages.

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With all due respect, science professors at the highest levels are required to excel at a specific type of pedagogy.

We are pretty bad (usually) at teaching mediocre to poor students. We excel, however, at teaching the high end of the curve. That is, essentially, what our success depends on. I’ve never met a successful scientists that did not excel at teaching. We teach (apprentice) brilliant and informed students to become truly exceptional, and use that training to answer important and significant questions that serve the common good.

This is pretty much worthless for dealing with the complexity of a classroom, which includes the full range of aptitudes. So in that sense, do not come to use for advice. However, it is very closely relevant to dealing with gifted children. That is something we do have some understanding of.

The “show your work” piece is really important. Give him some perspevctive. Math at the most interesting levels is not about established answers. To make progress you always have to show your work, to convince people you are right when they do not see it clearly. Showing your work is just as important as getting the right answer.

Having him tutor other kids is a great way to reinforce that too. It’s not just about getting the “right” answer. We also have to be able to demonstrate its the right answer. (Once again, we are getting into soft skills).

@Christy, I think your son is lucky to have you. Kids like him can do really well in homeschool, if they get the right support and direction.

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Have you heard of AlphaZero? Google’s new AI chess engine taught itself to play in four hours and destroyed Stockfish, the reigning “world champion” of chess engines, in a 100-game match by a score of 28 wins, 72 draws, and 0 losses. Fascinating stuff. (Sorry we’re off topic, mods.)

https://www.chess.com/news/view/google-s-alphazero-destroys-stockfish-in-100-game-match
https://www.chess.com/article/view/how-does-alphazero-play-chess

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An overemphasis on Science-Technology-Engineering-Math that relegates the arts to the back burner has been addressed by the STEM-to-STEAM initiative of the Rhode Island School of Design. A stands for “Arts,” so STEM + A = STEAM. Read about this at StemToSteam. It might be fun to check your public schools to see what they are doing about it. (Or maybe they never got to STEM in the first place. We should finance our schools!)

At the end of the day, though, STEM is still extremely important, especially if we want to remain competitive in an increasingly technological world.

BioLogos used to have a “Senior Fellow of Arts and Humanities” named Mark Sprinkle, whose work can still be found on this site. I don’t recall an enthusiastic response to his work, even though he tried to keep things “accessible.”

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Even Sesame Street is getting into the Stem + Arts action for their 43rd season. This might be a valuable resource for homeschoolers of the very young. Read about the new curriculum on the Sesame Street Web site.

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Hmm. I must’ve run across a number of the ones you missed. :slight_smile: Perhaps they were bad because they didn’t want to put in the effort to be good teachers. Or they were simply deficient due to social disabilities.

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In context, =), I’m talking about teaching in a very narrow way (which does not include classroom teaching), and I’m talking about successful scientists, not all scientists.

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I don’t think success as a scientist and success as a teacher necessarily run together – at least not if science is like other disciplines which I suspect it is. Brilliant mathematicians do not always make for great teachers. E.g. probably nobody disputes that Frederick Gauss was brilliant; but he was a lousy teacher – even to other young and aspiring geniuses (such as Reimann, if I’m remembering one of his would-be pupils correctly). I may be wrong about that but I do remember reading that Gauss wasn’t willing to give credit or much any other encouragement even to other rising stars that we now also recognize as brilliant. Lost opportunities, but people can’t be expected to be good at everything I don’t suppose.

Later edit: I should have double checked on Gauss before speaking ill of him … Riemann was among those who would see benefit and praise from Gauss --so I was wrong about that. Apparently it was more that Gauss disliked teaching. I can’t find what I had read that gave me a different impression.

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Well, I’ve seen well recognized, successful scientists who couldn’t lead labs or mentor to save their lives. Some people simply aren’t balanced and perform best left by themselves.

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May be something to the old joke, then. In med school, had contact with 3 Nobel laureates, they were OK teachers, but the very best teachers seldom got a lot published. It is tough to be outstanding in everything.

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Sorry I am late to the party. However, I am not surprised at all about the Google study results as I suspect the large majority of Google STEM employees are H1B visa folks - meaning they are foreign born. As someone who spent most of my career in industry, and a reasonable amount in academia, I would argue that they are much less skilled in the 7 qualities of success than native born STEM employees. The cultural difference along with the way they were raised as children is much different than in the U.S. This was clearly apparent to me as a college instructor who had both types of students in class. In my specialty area of engineering electromagnetics, the main qualities for success in industry are being smart, creative, having gone to a top college - and being comfortable with the cultural environment. . I would estimate anyone who has those factors is smart enough to have observed and absorbed the Google qualities for success. The last of these factors is a stumbling block for many, but certainly not all, foreign born engineers/physicists.

I would also add that those who have those qualities will also be curious enough as adults to learn about humanities and social sciences. In my own case, I have learned enough to have made original contributions (but never bothered to publish) in history, geography, and OT studies. In fact, I have at least several hundred books in my personal library on religious and biblical studies, along with theology and philosophy.

Like it or not, I believe that the smartest students are attracted to the intellectual challenge of STEM majors. They are also the most likely ones to be good at critical thinking and complex reasoning. This is not meant to denigrate other areas of study - but if I am involved in determining the solution to a complex engineering problem, I want to have people like me on the team. Diversity, as much as it is touted, cannot be blindly applied. Cheers.

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May I suggest two resources I’ve used with my Math students, and with good interest from them:

  1. Week of Inspirational Math(s) - youcubed is part of the large program carried forward by Stanford prof. J. Boaler. There are many useful resources that mainly aim at enriching deep thinking in Math rather than surface rote repetition
  2. Courses | Brilliant a great collection of engaging problems in Math and Science. Most of them are definitely not routine based, so a students has to engage in beautiful intellectual challenges

There are a few other great resources I could suggest, lust let me know.

Generally, I agree with the uneasiness some of you pointed out. STEM has become as more or less a buzzword as “creative thinking” or “social-emotional learning”. That’s ok with pursuing these goals, as long as they’re not just the wrap up of something as old as always.

I mean you can do some great intellectual exercise with just a sheet of paper: https://davidwees.com/content/paper-folding-activities/
Or something really rote and low-level like some current programming courses where they just ask you to fill the blank with some code, while you don’t even have to think a the bigger picture, the algorithm involved, the Math behind the code or else.

Hope this helps and contributes to the conversation.

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Thanks so much for the suggestions. I’m excited to check them out.

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