Spiritual evolution through theological selection

Faith & Science Conversation
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Because God loves us and does not want us to remain enslaved to sin and death that we all have chased after. So great was that love that Jesus was willing to face death himself - facing, and defeating the whole of what has defeated us, so that he has become our salvation, our means of reconciliation to God.

I do believe in and hope for the restoration of all things under [growth of all things into and under] the Lordship of Christ. I don’t know the details of what that looks like, and don’t buy into the popularized versions of such events that have captured the imaginations of (probably mostly American) audiences over the last century or two.

God makes all things new, including you and me. The old needs to pass away to make room for the new. That doesn’t mean there is no continuity with the old. In other words (just as with our physical bodies - temples that they are) there is a clothing of our mortal frames with the immortal, as Paul writes to the Corinthian church. I believe that is a model for all creation that groans and awaits our salvation along with us. There is an “already/not yet” aspect to all this, because we are told that the kingdom of God is already here among us (Luke 17). That doesn’t means it’s fully realized or has reached its final culmination.

As to details and timelines of how that all works out - I remain ignorant and trusting in God that it is and will continue to unfold in God’s plan, without my needing to pretend full understanding or needing to chase after various traditions and theologies that demand particular understandings and traditions of men as a precondition for joining their club. All we need to do is look to Christ and learn faithfulness and obedience to Him. While doing that, all else will be worked out for us as needed, through our death and beyond. Lord, help us to live by that trust and hope - thereby learning to Love and Live truly.

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There are no such words in the Bible. What it says and in context is the following…

> 4 From of old no one has heard
> or perceived by the ear,
> no eye has seen a God besides thee,
> who works for those who wait for him.
> 5 Thou meetest him that joyfully works righteousness,
> those that remember thee in thy ways.
> Behold, thou wast angry, and we sinned;
> in our sins we have been a long time, and shall we be saved?
> 6 We have all become like one who is unclean,
> and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
> We all fade like a leaf,
> and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
> 7 There is no one that calls upon thy name,
> that bestirs himself to take hold of thee;
> for thou hast hid thy face from us,
> and hast delivered us into the hand of our iniquities.
> 8 Yet, O Lord, thou art our Father;
> we are the clay, and thou art our potter;
> we are all the work of thy hand.
> 9 Be not exceedingly angry, O Lord,
> and remember not iniquity for ever.
> Behold, consider, we are all thy people.

It most certainly DOES NOT say that our efforts to overcome sin are without value. What is without value is thinking that our efforts have earned us anything – it is this sense of entitlement which so many of the religious have acquired by their imagination. As Jesus explained, it is impossible that we can achieve our salvation – only God can do that. Thus our salvation can never be one of our accomplishments but only a work of God. But it is completely wrong to say that God does not appreciate our efforts. What God does not appreciate are those who put on a show – “put on airs” to claim their righteousness gives them the right to speak for God (see Matthew 23).

This, at least, is quite correct. Salvation is the work of God not any process of nature

Incorrect. We are not saved by accepting your nonsensical doggerel. We certainly should not accept declarations by you which are manifestly untrue. People can and do improve themselves all the time.

There is no incompatibility with the science of evolution which has absolutely nothing to do with salvation – more nonsensical doggerel.

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What is the improvement? Your image is an outmoded view of human evolution. We now picture evolution as a bush. It is never about making progress. An organism becomes more fit for a particular environment

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I think that @Mervin_Bitikofer and @beaglelady have backed themselves onto a broken false limb. They have followed a truth that evolution doesn’t have some kind of evolutionary goal like modern humans and over-extended this into claiming that evolution doesn’t make improvements – when it most obviously does. The evolutionary algorithm certainly does work – but the only criterion of biological evolution is survival, and there are MANY MANY MANY survival strategies. Some of them can even be described as evil – viruses which invade other organisms to steal their capabilities and resources while destroying them, cookoo birds which lay eggs in another bird’s nest to push babies there out of their nests. Thus there certainly is no goal of spiritual improvement in biological evolution. BUT that does not mean there are no improvements of any kind – for we see many examples of that.

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If all you mean by improvements is survival strategies for the geological moment, then sure! I was speaking of improvement in the more value-laden sense. Only after we have decided (on quite non-scientific criteria) that larger cranial capacities represent progress or walking upright is to be preferred over knuckle dragging, - only then do we get to conclude that evolution has ‘improved’ things. But as a scientific thinker, it sounds suspiciously like, “evolution has made us more like we are now” … which is to say nothing about what should qualify as ‘improvement’ or not.

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How could the process of evolution have goals? Are you into intelligent design?
There are no goals in the scientific theory of evolution. Evolution doesn’t work like a ladder.
If you think there are goals you should list them

Evolution makes an organism more fit for a particular environment.

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The only changes which the process of evolution selects for are those which are an advantage for survival in the environment at that time. Survival is its only measure. But that tends to coincide with what we would judge as improvements by other measures – perhaps sometimes even moral improvements. But those other measurements are no universal criterion for the biological evolutionary process. I quibble and split hairs for the sake of better communication with adamjedgar. He sees improvements by some measure and we certainly do not argue that evolution did not produce them. And we have no reason to argue with his disputation of the idea in the OP that evolution is driven by an aim for spiritual improvement.

Calling it a “truth that evolution doesn’t have some kind of evolutionary goal” is to assert that it is true that evolution has no such goal. But from this adamgedgar has you defending the idea that evolution produces no improvements – and perhaps you should call “strawman tactic” on this.

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Huh? Who are you quoting? Name some evolutionary goals

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You insist on disagreeing with me so YOU must think evolution has goals. So YOU name some evolutionary goals. Its no wonder you are having a problem with adamjedgar when you make no effort whatsoever to communicate with people. This is a good example of caring more about being right than about finding out the truth as we discussed in the other thread.

Evolution doesn’t have goals. That is the truth.

But that doesn’t mean that evolution doesn’t improve things. Obviously it does. The examples are so many… better vision, better hearing, better intelligence, better mobility… natural selection does that. These are not goals. But they are improvements.

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What are you talking about?

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Life implies the urge to improve. This is the essence of life. Furthermore, this urge to improve is what propels evolution. Therefore, life implies evolution and evolution implies improvement.
However, goals are conscious decisions. Evolution therefore does not require goals. It just happens as part of existence.
Consider any field of knowledge. It reveals improvement or evolvement. For example, take the case of elements. Every element is an improvement on an earlier element. There is no conscious effort here. One element evolves further to form another element.
Similarly, the ape man evolved over time into homo sapiens. This is not a conscious development.
Evolution does not require goals because it forms the essence of existence.

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I don’t think so. Besides, evolution acts on populations, not on individuals.

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Having lower intelligence, loose moral or increased tendency for aggressive behavior and raping might improve fitness in certain environments. Should we call these changes improvements if they increase fitness?

The use of words that are associated with values in the context of evolution is problematic because it leads to misunderstandings. Improvement is one of those words. I understand that improvement can be used in many ways but too often people use the word like we would be talking of improved models of cars.

Are modern humans improved version of humans that lived >20’000 years ago? It depends on what you mean by improvement. Put a modern human to the environment where the ancient humans lived and the lifetime offspring production of the modern human might be much lower than that of the more ancient version.

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Or even before any questions of reproductivity … take any one of us and put us in that world 20,000 years ago, and how many of us would still be alive a year (or even a few months) later? If my diet depended on my hunting or gardening skills either one, I’ll be starving in most challenging or moderate climes.

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I would point out that saying the cartoon graphic depicting human evolution indicates “progress” assumes that humans are better than apes. Most biologists would consider this to be an arrogant assumption based more on anthropocentrism then actual science. I am not saying that you are making an arrogant claim, nor am I saying that I agree with the majority of evolutionary biologists. I am simply saying that biological evolution from apes to humans is only progress if you are assuming that humans are inherently better than apes. I don’t think that the scientific community necessarily holds this view. Apes evolving to humans by itself is just change. It is no more progress necessarily than “evolving” from an Englishman to an American.

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The graphic is out of date anyway. Human evolution is pictured as a bush now. Also, humans are classified in the sub-group of primates known as the Great Apes.

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Most of us lack proper education, like knowing which plants are edible or how to prepare ancient weapons or traps. Few urban people can even read animal tracks.

The interesting part would begin after we get that education. Could we prosper as well as ancient humans even if we had the same information?
‘Prosper’ is a relative word but at least survive and reproduce successfully.

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Don’t forget to add strength training. I’d be dead by the end of the first day.

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Whilst your ESV says that, it doesn’t change the original meaning of most other translations (such as BSB,NASV, KJV, NIV and a host of others). The traditional translation still uses the term I wrote…

My translation (BSB) says in Isaiah 64

Isaiah 64: 6 Each of us has become like something unclean,

and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;

the point is, salvation by works alone is futile as further explained by James. However what James in fact is saying is that it works the other way around to what the pharasees and sadduccess had been teaching the Israelites. Our works are generated by our faith and that is how we are saved…it is not our works that make us righteous.

James 2: 17 So too, faith by itself, if it does not result in action,f is dead.

So, contrary to what you have stated, our works do not save us… period. There is no evolutionary concept here when it comes to salvation. Man is not moving in the right direction either physically or spiritually. The book of Revelation is predicting the complete opposite of what evolution claims. Even looking around at the world, things are not getting better either socially or environmentally. It is spiralling out of control and getting worse by the day.

So again I repeat, "

[quote=“adamjedgar, post:50, topic:50286”]
The O.P does not understand the concept that our efforts to overcome sin are but filthy rags.
[/quote]

The point is, we are not of ourselves capable of overcoming sin. We cannot make ourselves righteous! That is impossible for humanity. The consequences of sin are also automatically bestowed upon all of us. We are all condemned to die from the moment we are conceived. The bible verse “for the wages of sin is death” is absolute…there is no escaping it either physically or spiritually unless we look to Christ, believe on him, and then follow him.

first comes the belief that he can save, then the following

Its faith, then actions (the actions being the fruit of our faith)

*Beagle lady, might I suggest that in future, when you quote bible texts with the intention of only quoting paraphrases and translations that appear to suit your needs, you use biblehub.com as your referencing tool. *
For individual texts, you can view more than a dozen different translations of that same verse in order to glean what the most accepted version of the text really is. This will help ensure an ecclectec understanding of scripture and reduce the chances of poorly founded doctrinal erros.

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What on God’s green earth are you responding to? How dare you assume to know my intentions!

Too bad it can’t help you with your spelling.