Sinners in the hands of an angry god

mitchellmckain · November 20, 2019, 9:12pm

Sinners in the hands of an angry God?

Is an angry God a god worth our regard?

Well it depends on why He is angry.

If He is angry because He feels offended just like we see in a lot criminals whose sense of pride and dignity means that any offense must be retaliated with maximum force (and if an eternity in a torture chamber doesn’t count as maximum I don’t know what does), then I would say this is not worthy even a smidgen of respect.

But if He is angry because of the innocent abused and tormented like any loving parent would be, then that is a different matter altogether. Then I would say, of course He is angry and I am too – so let’s get on with delivering some justice to the excremental persons who do these things.

I believe that good and evil is its own reward and that God doesn’t need to create a torture chamber called hell for evil doers because they do that all by themselves without any help from Him.

I don’t believe that heaven and hell is about punishment. How could it be? Punishment is for the purpose of behavior modification so an eternity in hell is a complete failure as punishment. No this is about the consequences of our own choices. We shall reap what we sow and the only question is whether do it separating ourselves from evil or by letting it consume us utterly.

Well sure… for those blessed with God’s efforts to alter their behavior and thinking, I would hope they welcome and rejoice in it.

But for those choosing the comfort of their sins over God’s corrective redemption, well that is a long dark road into degradation and destruction.

While I think of heaven and hell as the two logical polarities in human destiny due to the simple competition between the creative forces of life and learning and the destructive forces of bad habits.

For the most part, children are in a grace period where they are still learning from their mistakes and anyway they can hardly be considered responsible for defending their country from conquest by foreign powers – so the question would be, what are the adults doing?

However… even with children things can get rather nasty. Like when they are being taught by evil people to snipe civilians from rooftops or mow them down with machine guns in order to be good little child soldiers. I wouldn’t count on the usual ways of handling children to work with them so well and yes sending in an army to shut down that kind of horror right quick is something I would recommend.

Reggie_O_Donoghue · November 20, 2019, 9:33pm

And when the wicked are not punished by their own actions?

mitchellmckain · November 20, 2019, 9:35pm

Do you think God insures the operation of justice in the world?

RichardG · November 20, 2019, 9:36pm

Just to throw into the mix…
Faith is not just about the individual. Most people will accept more for themselves in terms of suffering or retribution than for loved ones. So if our doctrines condemn those loved ones who are no longer with us and able to change or even accept forgiveness… many will reject it for that reason alone. Because God will be seen as a threat to their loved ones A threat that is beyond all hope and possible redemption. It would be better for them to believe that there is nothing than to accept the thought of eternal damnation for those they love(d)

So before we lay down the law of retribution…

Perhaps God is better than this?

Richard

Reggie_O_Donoghue · November 20, 2019, 9:37pm

Either in this life or the next, yes

mitchellmckain · November 20, 2019, 9:45pm

Well history is crystal clear that it must be mostly in the next, don’t you think?

But if it is in the next then why would you think that wicked are not punished by their own actions. In the next, even more so than this world, I think we can only expect to live in the kind of world we create for ourselves, and the world which the wicked create is not a nice place to live at all.

mitchellmckain · November 20, 2019, 10:01pm

@RichardG
Your post brings to mind the films I have seen where we encounter the mother of a serial killer who knows what their child has done and by protecting them are complicit in what they do. No, I feel no compassion for such mothers. My compassion died with the screams of the victims. Love which is willing to sacrifice others for the sake of your own loved one is a poisonous thing and I want no part of it.

So… if you are in the position of such a mother… will you help one of these victims escape or will you see the victim as a threat to the one you love and thus approve of their fate being complicit in what is done to them?

God seems to endure far more suffering on the part of those He loves. Some think that make Him callous. Others might put in in the perspective of eternity and realize that this is not so much suffering after all. A parent will accept suffering of their children when it serves a greater purpose for their children in the long run.

…

The real point here is that there is a middle road between…

Angry God out to torture for eternity anyone daring to defy him.
Universalism where everyone is forgiven no matter what they have done and still choose to do.

MarkD · November 20, 2019, 10:52pm

Somehow I can’t think of heaven or hell as endpoints of a journey; where would the fun be in that?

And what else could eternity be besides one enduring now? Eternity wouldn’t quite be complete if it didn’t include every now. You can never get beyond now to later.

mitchellmckain · November 21, 2019, 5:46am

I didn’t say anything about endpoints. All I really indicated was two directions implied by creation and destruction. Of the two only destruction is likely to have an endpoint (in nothingness). But creation is limitless don’t you think?

Well life is growth and learning so eternal life would have to be growth and learning without end. Seems possible to me, especially with an infinite teacher.

Dale · November 21, 2019, 7:23am

About universalism…

mitchellmckain · November 21, 2019, 1:15pm

Looking at the vastly different things that different churches identify as the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is quite amusing.

For example the Catholics identify this with a list of six sins… (quoting from Wikipedia)

Despair (believing that one’s evil is beyond God’s forgiveness);

Presumption (glory without merit, that is, hope of salvation without keeping the Commandments, or expectation of pardon for sin without repentance);

Envying the goodness of another (sadness or repining at another’s growth in virtue and perfection);

Obstinacy in sin (willful persisting in wickedness, and running on from sin to sin, after sufficient instructions and admonition);

Final impenitence (to die without either confession or contrition for sins);

Impugning the known truth (to argue against known points of faith, and this includes misrepresenting parts or all of the Christian faith to make it seem undesirable).

But let’s look at the passages where this is taken from: Matthew 12, Mark 3, and Luke 12.
The first two concerns the incident where the scribes and Pharisees say that Jesus is healing people and casting out demons by the power of the devil. Luke doesn’t tell this story but only the conclusion about blaspheming the Holy Spirit. But both Matthew 12 and Luke 12 specifically deny that this is about speaking against Jesus. So what is this blaspheming against the Holy Spirit about then. From the story we gather that this refers to attributing something accomplished by the Holy Spirit to something evil. And since God is said to behind everything that is good, then we might come to the conclusion that this is about treating that which is innocent and good as something which is evil. And I don’t think we are talking about honest mistakes here but something which is completely intentional. I think this means any time when, for the purpose of greed, power and manipulation people vilify those who are good and doing good and call it evil to justify attacking them. This is unforgivable because there is no more decisive way in which you can declare your personal opposition to what is good – and thus an opposition to God and everything He offers.

But you know this isn’t only place in the bible where it speaks of something that will not be forgiven. It also says that when you do not forgive others then you will not be forgiven yourself. And then there is the places where Jesus says that if you judge others then you will be judged yourself in the same way.

RichardG · November 21, 2019, 1:32pm

You are clearly talking extremes. Perhaps you think that Hitler was beyond redemption? Are you questioning God’s mercy?

I am not talking about mothers of convicted criminals, I am talking about the everyday people who are not part of the faith. Their “sins” are minor if such a value can be made. But, your “all or noting” Gospel will condemn a loving parent who did nothing major wrong other than not believe in Christ. You ask someone to consign the rest of their family to Hell, because they do not believe. Why would they? Don’t you want to be with your loved ones for eternity? Why would anyone change their beliefs to reject the well being of all their loved ones? (especially those who have already passed on.)
Do you not understand? Have you no concept of compassion?

Richard

Dale · November 21, 2019, 3:35pm

Even if all that is so, don’t ignore the eternity part (which you seem to have).

mitchellmckain · November 21, 2019, 7:17pm

I am a physicist, so I know that the extremes are the situations where the truth is revealed.

No idea. I don’t know the guy or his circumstances. I especially don’t know what he might have been thinking at the end. That is why it is best not to judge people. We don’t see them like God does. What I do know is that people don’t change just because you show them the truth. They will often cling to their bad habits such as misery and spite just as stubbornly as others will cling to hope.

No but I am questioning nonsensical babble about the power of love and how love must win in the end. If “love” is a mean to power then it is not love and the world is a stark demonstration of the fact that love quite often does not win.

I suspected as much. But I reject the premise that people are saved or damned by their religious beliefs. The gospel of salvation by knowledge and correct belief is the teaching of the Gnostics not the teaching of Jesus and Paul, which is a gospel of salvation by the grace of God, who asks for our faith, made alive in works of love for those in need and which does not even ask who is saved and who is damned.

If they are so minor then perhaps they are willing to let them go when the opportunity comes.

Then you need to read the recent exchange with Dale because I disagreed with him on the notion that this is the one unforgivable sin.

The point is that there is a line in there somewhere, where a choice for your loved one(s) can be a choice for evil itself and rejection of all that is good.

I have rejected the notion of buying your salvation in exchange for your intellectual integrity. I certainly reject the notion of buying your salvation in exchange for the love of your family. The choice which signifies is between good and evil, between your self-destructive habits and a willingness to change for the better.

Is it possible that you haven’t read my posts as carefully as you thought?

Of course but it is not a notion that compassion trumps everything. Have I no compassion for those who would sacrifice others for the sake of those they love? No I do not – NONE! The point being that my compassion does have limits and I hope yours does too.

RichardG · November 21, 2019, 7:30pm

Perhaps, but I am not sure what they are.

Richard

Edward_T_Babinski · November 23, 2019, 9:10am

I don’t see clear evidence of God’s hand in history. What empire has not fallen? Augustine’s home in North Africa fell, and a few centuries later all of formerly Roman-Christian controlled North Africa fell to Islam. And God apparently blessed Islam with a lot of oil. European Christian kingdoms fought Islam but also fought with each other. (Today’s streak of 75 years of relative peace in a more secularized, less religious, Europe is unprecedented.) And check out the massive earthquake of Lisbon in Voltaire’s day and the doubts it helped bring to the surface of European Christian consciousness, and, the Thirty Years War, and two World Wars, all on the same continent that had the most churches and sent out the most missionaries for centuries.

During the American colonial era Christians executed each other, the older Christian denominations hung irksome itinerant evangelists from newer denominations (Quaker and Baptist missionaries were hung). And the Maryland Colonial Law of Religious Toleration only existed for Trinitarian believing Christians, so, Unitarians beware!

Even the American Revolutionary War involved Christians killing Christians, or at the very least theists killing theists, and both sides invoked divine rights, since Britain was a Christian kingdom, and the American side was led by deists and Christians.

Even the American Civil War was a theological mine field with churches splitting before the states did, and with preachers being among the loudest voices for secession.

Even early Roman Christians rioted with each other over the appointments of Bishops.

Today we see Christians competing for souls, Pentecostals vs. Catholics in South America and South Africa. And the least intellectual groups, the prosperity Gospel preachers, and miracle mongering preachers, are growing rich. The joke in those poorer nations is that if your business fails, start a church.

Lots of hyperlinks to some of the above info in this piece:

Mervin_Bitikofer · November 23, 2019, 1:09pm

Reading through Ezekiel lately … the theme there seems to be exactly that [that God’s hand is to be seen in the detritus of empires] … What self-aggrandizing empire around here will not fall underneath my wrath? And thereby you all will know that I am God!

Yes - there is then also prophecy about a new Kingdom to come - one that will have no end. The disciples of Jesus’ time were looking for that from him too: a military/political kingdom of the worldly sort. Perhaps many are hoping for that still? Even after all this time we’ve spent together, do you still not know me, Philip? …and Jesus goes on to remind them that he isn’t that kind of king, but something much larger.

Edward_T_Babinski · November 23, 2019, 11:28pm

The idea that one’s national deity was behind whatever good or bad things happened to one’s nation was a common ancient Near Eastern conceit:

Mervin_Bitikofer · November 24, 2019, 1:34am

Yes indeed … a conceit also embraced by many old testament prophets. It is interesting how we’ve become uncomfortable with that concept now - perhaps for very good reasons. But it certainly is there in the Bible to be dealt with.