Sin and Death "before" the Fall-the one area that prevents me to believe in "millions of years

Dear Michael,
And many very often forget the literal when it is too unconformable to believe. Nicodemus understood the requirements that Jesus taught for redemption (Matt 5:44–48 and 5:21-26), but was an old man. How could this old Pharisee change his ways in the few years he had left? So, yes, his spirit had to reenter the womb, into a new life where he could repay his debts and learn to love his enemies as Jesus taught.
Best Wishes, Shawn

This doesn’t address sin before the fall, but it does address animal death before the fall – it has to do with why God created this universe in the first place:
 

1 Like

@Randy_Mueller Here’s a good resource on the topic:

https://smile.amazon.com/Gods-Good-Earth-Unfallen-Creation-ebook/dp/B07N2K1SLG

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Well, Shawn, I do sincerely hope your spirit reentered your mother’s womb and you repaid your debts. Best Regards, Mike

1 Like

NO! There is a huge difference between physical life and spiritual life, and an even bigger difference between God and living things. God created physical life and since God is spirit, physical life has nothing whatsoever to do with Him. And even acknowledging this difference between spirit and physical, describing God as alive is not quite correct either – the correct description is life-giving. God is a life-giving spirit. There is a huge difference.

description of what?

Hurricanes?
Rock slides?
Stars?

ah… “will” the word in which you hide everything to make it all magical… hmmm…

1 Like

No, not yet!

Well, keep us posted! :slight_smile:

I would have hoped you can follow my thinking that it is my definition for “life”.

you contradict yourself within a sentence.
Tell me, if I create a computer virus, does it have nothing to do with me? If I build a Robot that can self replicate…?

Will is a property of a mind, you make it sound as if you are afraid of something, trying to ridicule it as magic.

In the sense that it has nothing to do with how your body or mind works, no, it has nothing to do with you. For example, it would be nonsensical to ask if the maker of a virus is a trojan or a worm, because the maker is not a computer virus.

Just because we have a word for something which we can insert into sentences doesn’t mean it actually exists out there as some kind of part or attachment to a thing. And just because something has a property doesn’t mean that is the only thing with that property.

My point was that I don’t think you actually explained anything. In fact, according to your added explanations, you are basically saying that only things with a mind are alive, which I certainly do not agree with. However, this definition of yours has some similarities to my own claim that the key nature of life is doing things for its own reasons (with no implications of a mind in my use of this word reasons, but rather with having to look for the explanations within rather than just the environment). This is not sufficient for a definition of life though because the same can be said of non-living phenomena.

1 Like

Ever considered that the maker has a higher complexity than what he makes?
What the virus has to do with me is that it executes my will.

My point was indeed that only those things with a will of their own are independent lives. Anything that fulfills the instructions of others are not their independent lives but part of the life of the ones who’s instructions they execute. You can construct machines that are capable of replication and self repairing and maintain homeostasis grow…

this is exactly my point that there are no “non-living phenomena” unless you deny the existence of a transcendent God that transcends all reality.

Laura’s comment (the first in the thread) had a good point which is often overlooked and generally not talked about. It should “convince you”.
When you have a finite resource, like the Earth’s, 2 systems of creation work:

  1. A static system where everything is created at once and there is no births or deaths.
  2. A dynamic system where there is births and deaths.

System 1 is like how the angels were created (not on Earth I know).
System 2 is like how animals, including humans, were created.

System 2 Comments:

  • Without death, God’s command to “go forth and multiply” would have created exponential growth, the ecosystem would have gone into crisis and everything would have starved. This method of creation doesn’t add up and should convince you death was needed.
  • With vaccinations, better sanitation and improved health care humanity has significantly reduced deaths before people have the chance to procreate which has resulted in exponential growth and the global population growing from 1 billion to 7.7 billion in around 200 years. This has similar results to the “go forth and multiply” command without deaths, but nowhere near as severe. This reductions in young deaths is to be celebrated but also raises the importance of birth control. I know this second point is not directly related, but I mention it due to its importance.

So, there are 2 systems of creation and God has now used both of them, one with the heavenly creatures and one with the earthly creatures. It is a trade-off. We have the celebration of new life and the variety that evolution brings - the angels can’t experience these in their domain. The heavenly creatures don’t experience the pain of death - we do.

Here is something else which is amazing about evolution and should be celebrated. It creates vastly different animal worlds depending on when in time you look. On the hot Pangea supercontinent you had dinosaurs, in the ice age world you had giant hairy mammals, and these are just 2 of the worlds you can explore through geology and the fossil record. I love exploring these ancient worlds as well as our current one.

5 Likes

Welcome back
To experience the pain of death requires you to be a fallen being, wanting to exist under your own authority. If you are free of sin you do not suffer death because you exist not for yourself. Blessed are those who can still sing to God when they are put to death by other humans who are afraid of the authority of God because it would crush their empires.
It is a common mistake that people confuse death with an act of God’s punishment of humans. He does not say “If you eat from that tree I will kill you for your disobedience” but warns Adam and Eve of the logical consequence of their action of separating themselves from God that is the life everlasting. He gives us the chance to eat from the tree of life in Jesus, by giving up himself, like any loving father would do to let his children come back to him.