I dont think its a “myth”. We are paying our sins as well the decision our long long ancestors in some way
I did not forget and for the argument i was making that part did not matter. I was showing that universalism is not true. Not all are saved.
I have a question.
Are we saved by works righteousness or are we saved by grace?
Work righteousness means that no matter how good we are, we will never be good enough. So we are saved by grace. Grace does not mean there is not work on our part. That we can do and believe whatever and it’s randomly given. God gives grace and mercy to whom he chooses.
The Bible defines who he chooses so that we can follow him.
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This is your defence for excluding everyone else?
So I will ask you a question. Is God’s grace restricted by our beliefs?
Richard
We are saved by coming to Christ and the path to Christ is expressed through the gospels. Faith is belief verified by works. Though because of the battle of flesh and spirit we all fall short and despite doing our best we all need grace.
But what you want me to say is this and so I will because I’m comfortable with it.
Anyone who rejects Jesus Christ is condemned. If your faith does not lead to Jesus Christ as the gospels do then your faith will be no different than the faith mankind has placed into idols.
I asked if we are saved by grace or saved by works righteousness for a reason.
You mentioned muslims. So what Muslim, Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, Odinist, or atheist lives a lofe that is so perfect they don’t need grace. Their goodness alone justifies them to where they don’t need Christ. They made it to the father without him. There is none. So since there is none under the new covenant we have with God that means there is no such thing as good enough. Works does not save anyone. That means the only chance at salvation is through Christ.
So show we which faith and only texts takes a person to Christ? I see one. The word of a god as given by the prophets, Jesus, and his apostles inspired by the spirit of God.
Not an “or” question.
To summarize Eph 2:1-10:
- Without Christ no grace.
- In Christ but without good works (verse 10 or James 2:14) no salvation.
Boy are you missing the point.
it is not about buying a stairway to Heaven.
it is not about brownie points.
It is not about what we do at all.
It is about why we do it.
God’s grace is not dependent on any act. What Does God look for?
Read your Bible! Try David.
It is something that transcends even what you believe.
Richard
The concept of Christian grace is already to understand world verifies faith. I touched on that same point already and since I was not doing a post about grace and work righteousness I did not dig into.
But it is still either or.
We are either saved by grace or not. I see scripture as giving grace to those who have heard the word of God, chose you obey the word of God and placed their faith in him, then repented of false doctrine and fruits of the flesh, and gets baptized into Christ. That does not take away from the fact we are still saved by grace alone.
In the end it still comes down to are we saved because we deserve it based on what we do are are we saved by grace and if saved by grace how do we become one of the ones he grants it to.
According to scriptures collectively it’s Christians. Muhammad, Buddha, and Kristina can’t lead souls to God through Christ anymore than a block
Of wood carved into a idol.
So we are saved by grace and god does not give salvation to everyone. Only some. The ones who get it are those who love God and their neighbor. But what does it mean to love God and your neighbor? Well to love God you have know the son and to know the son you have to be known by the son and to be known by the son you have to follow him and he and the apostles fleshed out how to do that.
You asked me a question, I gave you the mainstream Protestant answer.
What I understand from your words it’s more about the above and I definitely don’t agree with Richard and maybe my post #610 raised an eyebrow?
In 1 Peter 4:6 we read that the Gospel is preached to the dead.
For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.
Meaning, through Christ of course, judgement is given to Him.
Just found this passage below and thought it applies well to this thread. It is from one of George Macdonald’s unspoken sermons - the one titled “The Wilderness”.
Here is an extended, excerpted quote of it:
I am even ashamed to yield here to the necessity of writing what is but as milk for babes, when I would gladly utter, if I might, only that which would be as bread for men and women. What I must say is this: that by the Word of God, I do not [mean] The Bible. The Bible is a Word of God, the chief of his written words, because it tells us of The Word, the Christ; but everything God has done and given man to know is a word of his, a will of his; inasmuch as it is a will of his, it is a necessity to man, without which he cannot live: the reception of it is man’s life.
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No one claims that they can, through Christ. But is Christ God (in human form) or not? Once you separate Christ from God you change Christianity.
Richard
Mervin,
Thank you for sharing the quote. It was certainly the direction I was interested in exploring with others when I clicked on this discussion. Specifically, the part where Macdonald says, “The Bible is a Word of God, the chief of his written words, because it tells us of The Word, the Christ…”
The story in Acts 8:26-40 highlights what Macdonald says. The Bible makes it easier to understand Christ; certainly, in my personal life, I cannot fathom how I could have come to know Christ and the way for salvation without someone explaining it to me, and also my personal reading of the Bible. However, I would be open to other stories of repentance that may not include the Bible - as it is not explicit in the Bible how people like Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and his sons came to know God before Moses started to write down his revelations.
A dis-agreeance with Macdonald (if we would like to discuss further?) is his statement that “everything God…has given man to know is a word of his, a will of his…” However, it may be a misinterpretation on my part of what Macdonald is trying to say; if anyone is more familiar with his work, please correct me.
I am interpreting that when he says “everything” this includes the human person knowing evil things (e.g. death, murder, polygamy, slavery, etc.) Can anyone please clarify if he explains further in his sermon what he means by “given man to know”. If he does include evil things in his definition of “everything,” then my question would be, “Are the existence of evil things a will of God?”
This question has big implications for the answer to “Should ‘Bible’ = ‘Word of God’?” and interpretation of the Bible in general. For example, the Crusades (deliberate murder of Muslims) was justified as being the will of God because it was written in the scriptures that the Israelites murdered others in the past who did not believe in and/or follow God in order to claim the “promised land” (Note: this is not my interpretation of the Bible and God’s will, only an example of the logic if one were to equate both good AND evil being the word and will of God).
Note: I agree with Macdonald’s inclusion of “everything God has done” as being a word of his, a will of his; as God acts consistently and according to his personality, which is good.
I’d like to go further, but will stop at this point until there is clarification on Macdonald’s quote; or if there is interest to explore the question raised.
A relevant question (in my opinion) in the 21st century as we are seeing the rise of racism and xenophobia amongst some Christian groups based on their interpretation of the Bible. It wasn’t long ago (less than 200 years maybe?) that some Christian groups were promoting the ideas of slavery and eugenics as being “Christian” based on “the word of God”.
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If you are trying to fully grasp Macdonald from my one excerpt here, then you indeed have a challenge, and even with his entire sermon “The Wilderness” in hand it may still be a challenge if English is not your first language - given that Macdonald’s prose is old and quite convoluted sometimes. But I will try to do it justice and hope that others here may chime in with needed corrections.
In this particular sermon “Wilderness” Macdonald makes God’s Word a quite personal and personalized affair. I.e. until that Word is in you, you can’t know that it is to you, much less hope to understand it. It is “as nothing but thunder” to you. It is only “God’s Word” at the point where you finally recognize and receive it as such. Now I (Merv) can anticipate amazed reactions to this as it sounds so highly relativistic - as if God’s word is then denied its stature as such “until I bestow that stature upon it by my understanding and acceptance.” But I think to take it this way is to miss Macdonald’s point - and I don’t think Macdonald would place God’s word under human authority in such a way. I take it to mean that God’s word is everywhere and legion in the world around us, but that we will not benefit from it one single bit or receive its nourishment as our truly needed bread, (which is how Christ describes it in his response to his first temptation.) We won’t get such benefit until that specific word to an individual man or woman is actually in them and understood / obeyed by them. That is God’s word that man will live by. And if each of us is addressed by God in our singular walks of life, then indeed there isn’t just one word, but many, as the Spirit wends its way among us.
I don’t think Macdonald would mean that, though (if indeed he means any of this at all and I have understood him aright) - he wouldn’t mean it to be any denigration or demotion of Jesus as being then “just another Word”. Jesus is still the Word of God to all of us. But there are many other more specific words that are unlocked for us in Christ’s illuminating light - directing each of us in our specific situations.
At least that is how I am understanding Macdonald.
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I am enjoying this discussion.
I hope it benefits others as well.
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