Series reviewing Douglas Axe's Undeniable

This is true too, but it is important to distinguish between falsehoods and lies. Most likely, this is just what this biology professor thinks, without knowledge it is false.

What follows is not a full engagement with @bjmiller’s post, but some of the key errors that are worth pointing out for the benefit of those following along.


Not really. It is correct, and not mistaken. We know for a fact that functions can appear in “disordered” proteins, and that these functions can become more efficient as the functional fold is stabilized. This entirely undermines Axe’s argument. The fact that some proteins (most in mammal’s?) never need to be fully stabilized for their function severely undermine’s Axes entire argument. He is working of an antiquated view (i.e. decade old, so maybe not antiquity) protein function. He would have to turn back the clock of our understanding to be correct.

Incidentally, it’s about when he left science that disordered proteins were beginning to be understood. We’ve just grown in our understanding since his last paper was published.

If he is unaware of this research (and there are several different approaches) he is certainly not an expert in protein evolution. There are several approaches, and literally hundreds if not thousands of papers here. No bluff here, he should contact me and we’ll talk about it.

On this I would totally agree!

For example, this is the exact error that Doug Axe’s argument falls into. He is arguing in a circular way. His argument essentially assumes that extant proteins are the only way to achieve what we see, so therefore they must be rare because extant proteins are only a small space of sequence space. That ends up being the fundamental error of his approach. Quite ironically, Doug Axe’s argument is just the type of circular reasoning that needs to be avoided.

However, the reason I raised the issue of co-evolution is to show just one reason why Axe’s inference to inaccessibly rare function by studying mutational tolerance of extant proteins is invalid. He grossly misinterpreted his data, ignoring some of the fundamental principles of protein structure.

Just false. There are several mechanisms we know of that can build up complex functions from simple functions. This also deviates substantially from Axe’s argument in the first place. Ignorance of evolutionary science is not an argument against it. One can dispute it, but ignorance is not a rebuttal.

That is a nice just-so-story with great anthropomorphic flare. We could tell the same story about Abzymes too. Literally no meaningful difference at all. Describing how a enzyme works in anthropomorphic terms does not somehow remove the fact that we can find enzymes in a forward approach. And of course, we could tell beautiful anthropomorphic stories about them too. That is why this sort of rhetoric is not convincing.

This is another fairly interesting equivocation worthy of discussion.

Notice what is assumed here? The argument implies that new complex enzymes are required for most (or all?) major adaptations. That, it turns to be false, and to be clear, that claim is only implied, not clearly stated. One of the great surprises of biology, however, is that this is not generally true.

Let’s take one of the most stunning strings of major adaptation in history, the evolution of humans from common ancestors with apes. Our intuition might tell us this would require evolving a large number of new and complex proteins. Our intuitions would be wrong (sorry Axe). As far as I can tell, there is no evidence than any new enzymes were needed at all. It turns out:

  1. To a first approximation, humans and the great apes have the same proteins, just turned on and off (expressed and spliced) in different patterns.
  2. To a second approximation, some of these proteins have tweaks that subtly alter their function.
  3. To a third approximation, a small number (<100?) of peptides (not enzymes as far as we know!) might possibly have arisen with subtle functions very hard to pin down. It is entirely possible all these de novo proteins are spurious and none of them are important.

So as surprising as this is, we there is no evidence (I can find) that any new enzymes were required for humans to evolve over the last 6 million years. There are no complex enzymes that we have that a great ape does not. Take that in. It is a really stunning fact. New enzymes are not required for the most important evolutionary development to us, the rise of humans.

If the evolution of humans is not a major adaptation, nothing else really is. What we find is that for large organisms (like mammals), most major adaptation takes place by just rearranging things. To make an analogy, you can make a lot of things with lego pieces (see lego sculptures). You do not usually need a totally new types of pieces for major adaptive change. The Lego analogy is a weak analogy, yes. However, in this one sense, it is true. It just does not take a lot of new types of pieces to make new things. We just need to arrange them differently. That is one of the grand surprises of comparative genomics.

With this fact in mind, at best Doug Axes argument, at absolute best, it is an argument against the origin of life and against bacterial evolution. It may be an argument against God-free evolution in cases where enzymes are important for major adaptations in mammals (where?). However, it is not argument against the God-free evolution of humans from a common ancestor with the great Apes. Remember, he does not engage any of the evidence for the common descent of man. So even if he is correct (and he is not), this reduces to an origin of life argument.

Of course, I am not arguing for God-free evolution. I understand evolution as God’s providentially governed way of creating us. If we allow for God’s providential work, this would not even be a good argument against the origin of life.

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Thanks for taking the time to formulate the post, Josh. That was a great series of explanations showing exactly why Axe’s arguments are flawed.

This exact rebuttal was running through my mind this week. When we consider the creative power of God, the “arguments from odds” that Axe and others like to use are just plain moot. They are only applicable to a evolution without God, and not very effective in that regard, either.

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https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fymQV2zu50apoRfgc24b6pTdJDOrYXFb/view
I feel this may be relevant. Seems to address one of the claims made in the post

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Here is the next article, from the Faraday Institute:

That is why we see so many examples of what would appear to be bad design to an engineer. Some aspects of biology are like Heath-Robinson contraptions, rather than machines made by an intelligent engineer for dealing with specific problems.

Honestly, his argument about “bad design” ill advised. I believe God created us all, and He did not create us with a bad design, but through the process of common descent. I think rhetoric like this article on “bad design” just raises senseless confusion about God’s role in evolution.

However, there is some important thoughts on anti-intellectualism:

There is some implicit anti-intellectualism throughout the book and it is intensely worrying (“All Humans Are Scientists,” 60-64), and this way of thinking then turns in on itself as he attempts to use complex science to undermine established (and many would say proven) scientific concepts.

And here:

Axe’s approach is disturbingly close to the view of ‘who needs experts?’ that seems to be prevail in popular politics. Yet, of course Axe sets himself up as an expert, and his opinion is supposed to resonate with our own common sense/science.

It seems Axe wants to have it both ways. He wants to attack all the experts who disagree with him by making a populist appeal against experts and for “common science.” However, he also wants to turn around and dismiss critics like @vjtorley and, even other biologists, because they are not the real experts, like he apparently is. That is an incoherent strategy, but it is what he is doing.


Still, having read all the reviews, @Joel_Duff’s article is the best, by far. I highly recommend reading it i you have not yet seen it.

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And he points to this article:

Foldability of a Natural De Novo Evolved Protein

Recent studies have shown that new protein-coding genes can arise ‘‘de novo’’ from noncoding DNA. The properties of the brand new proteins encoded by these genes remain poorly understood. Here, Bungard et al. show that a very young de novo protein from yeast folds to a partially ordered three-dimensional structure.

http://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/2113867358/2084410546/fx1.jpg
http://www.cell.com/structure/abstract/S0969-2126(17)30297-6

I agree, and did not mean to suggest otherwise. I will also say that we can be sure, based on the stuff posted by Dr. Miller, that his friend is so poorly informed about protein evolution that the claim that s/he is a “biology professor south of me specializing in protein evolution” must have been a misunderstanding. The errors indicate superficial understanding of the concepts and even shallower knowledge of the literature.

EDIT: changed Miller’s title to Dr.

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Dr. Miller is worth knowing more about…

https://ratiochristi.org/people/brian-miller

@bjmiller is a friend of mine on staff at the Discovery Institute and a regular contributor to ENV.

We certainly can and should disagree with him, but no reason to demote him. He is thoughtful person, and I have never observed him being disrespectful or intentionally deceitful. He surely believes everything he has put out. We can disagree, but let us also be as respectful as we can.

I know you weren’t suggesting otherwise. I just wanted to clarify for those listening in. We can spread falsehood uknowningly. That happens all the time.

I’ll edit my post right now, laughing that my failure to know that he has a PhD is branded as “disrespect” on a forum like this one, polluted with laughable taunting of science scores of times a week. Your overreaction to my little oversight (I didn’t google him) is ridiculous.

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Wasn’t calling you out for intentionally demoting him =). I just think you did not know who he was. Sorry if that cam out wrong, I’ll delete it too.

Yes, there are a lot of anti-science disrespect here, but we should do the best we can in response. And I know already that you agree.

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This article from Klinghoffer attacking the Henry Center is surprising, and cannot serve their purpose.

As I understand it, they were honoring Axe by building the symposium around them. Most of them (all?) are not even theistic evolutionists. It’s amazing how unkind they were to their host.

It only makes sense if they really feel Axe is losing the argument, badly.

If I was putting forward game changing ideas like the ID movement is trying to do Id expect a lot of “firing squads”. I certainly wouldn’t complain about it. This is more of the Darwinian conspiracy they rely on to explain their failures. I’m happy I don’t belong to a movement that has to rely on conspiracy theories to explain its failures. If scientists ignore their arguments its “they are afraid to deal with our arguments.” If scientists do pay attention to the arguments its " this shows there really is a controversy". Now if you get a lot of negative reviews it’s a “firing squad”.

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I also found the accusation of citation bluffing humorous and ironic. Has anyone ever read Darwin’s Doubt? Goodness. Or pretty much anything by Johnathon Wells.

Honestly, I faced a few fire squads of my own on the genealogical sciences work I was doing. It is a good thing if you have a good idea. Listen to this talk on “The Recent Common Ancestry of All Humanity about 6,000 Years Ago” at the last ASA.

http://resources.asa3.org/FMPro?-db=asadb49.fm4&-format=%2Fasadb%2Fdetail3.html&-lay=layout1&-sortfield=first%20author&source_occasion=2017%2BAnnual%2BMeeting&-lop=or&-max=2147483647&-recid=36603&-find=

I gave a 10 minute talk, and took 20 minutes of questions, to standing room only crowd. It absolutely was a firing squad. “No one” agreed with me at the beginning. In the end, I knew that I had uncovered gold, and had everyone either convinced I was right, or totally confused and knowing they had missed something.

I still got accusations of pseudoscience, but I knew I was right at that point. Rather than arguing against me, they were just getting educated. Wrote and submitted an article to PSCF (same audience of ASA). There were 6 reviews. 17 pages of comments, not one scientific critique. Everyone was objecting to the theology and hermeneutics, but this was an exclusively scientific argument. To the editors credit, it was published two days ago:

https://asa3.site-ym.com/global_engine/download.asp?fileid=1C188FD9-115C-424E-BFB0-0283DA669048&ext=pdf

The debate, now, is over. Firing squads like this are good. That is how we uncover truly surprising ideas that were missed by a lot of people. That is how established dogma is overturned too. If the squad really is firing blanks, then there is not real risk at all. In fact it’s a good thing. It demonstrates how the consensus was wrong.

The worst thing that can happen when we have a good idea is for everyone to ignore it. If we cannot convince people after we have attracted their attention (in the firing squad!) it is most likely because we have not made our case nearly as effectively as we thought.

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Hi Joshua,

I’d just like to say a big thank you for your kind remarks about my review of Dr. Axe’s Undeniable, and for your detailed reply to @bjmiller. Dr. Miller is a qualified physicist, but biochemistry is a different field.

I also enjoyed reading @Joel_Duff’s review of Dr. Axe’s book. Much food for thought there.

Finally, I’d like to thank @T.j_Runyon for providing a link to the article titled, “Foldability of a Natural De Novo Evolved Protein” by Bungard et al. (Structure 25, 1687–1696, November 7, 2017). For the benefit of readers who (like myself) are not qualified scientists, I’ve put together the following excerpt from the article, which, I hope, may provide a fairly non-technical summary of the authors’ work:

As a step toward structural characterization of young de novo proteins, we present a case study of the yeast protein Bsc4. A serious issue with case studies of individual newborn genes is the difficulty in proving, in the absence of evolutionary conservation, that they are both protein coding and functional, in addition to proving that they arose from noncoding sequences (McLysaght and Hurst, 2016). The yeast gene BSC4 is an exceptionally well-supported case of an entire functional protein-coding gene that recently evolved de novo from an ancestral noncoding sequence (Cai et al., 2008)…

We predict that the Bsc4 protein has at least some folded structure despite the de novo origin and youth of the BSC4 gene…

DISCUSSION: We have demonstrated for the first time that a young, naturally functional protein, encoded by a gene that evolved recently de novo from noncoding DNA, folds to a structure with some properties found in native globular proteins. These properties include compactness, stable secondary structure, side-chain burial, cooperative denaturation, and some resistance to proteolysis. The structure of Bsc4 is not entirely native-like, however, lacking a specific quaternary state. In addition, we found no conclusive evidence for specific tertiary interactions, and the behavior of Bsc4 in dye-binding experiments is similar to that of amyloid oligomers or molten globules. In sum, Bsc4 is neither an IDP [intrinsically disordered protein - VJT] (at least not a highly unfolded one), nor does it appear likely to be a uniquely folded globular protein… Bsc4 might be conservatively described as having a ‘‘rudimentary fold’’ (Labean et al., 2011), and it also bears some comparison with a folding or misfolding intermediate. In any case, a nascent structure with such an unusual combination of properties seems reasonable for the ‘‘birth’’ of folding in a de novo evolved protein. Whether such proteins can later evolve more specific, native-like structures remains speculative.

If some de novo proteins can fold, even partially, then in principle they could be a source of structural innovation, namely new protein domain folds or novel modes of oligomerization…

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I’m honestly intrigued by Klinghoffer’s role at Evolution News. My perception certainly can’t be trusted as an honest look “behind the curtains”, but he certainly seems to be the assigned attack dog - a non-Christian that they allow to pursue the more-disparaging arguments against their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ - thereby keeping their hands free of such attacks.

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I don’t think that is it.

I’ve had beer with him up in Seattle and his a delightful guy. He honestly gave me really good advice back then about how to handle being more public figure, without taking it so seriously.

Klinghofer was originally a political guy, who was an editor (?) at the National Review. He is an orthodox Jew, and has real compassion for the many people (usually Christians!) who have been kicked out of science or had their voices silenced because of their dissent from evolutionary science. Without adjudicating whether or not each of those cases was warranted, he has real empathy for them that is admirable.

In his ENV posts, I think its his political operator side coming out. There is a culture in politics where people will scathingly attack each other in public, but then grab a beer afterwards as friends, realizing its all part of the job. That conflict can even drive interest and increase exposure. My sense, from talking with him, was that he sees it as a sign of respect to be attacked by your opponents. It is not personal, but just how his world works.

So, in the end, I’ve come to really like Klinghofer, even though I rarely agree with him on the particulars. He has made some important contributions to the conversation by drawing attention to the right places too. He is not mean hearted, and there are some real opportunities for common ground.


We might object that this is not “Christian behavior” but there are certainly a lot of Christians in politics doing just this sort of thing. Moreover, Klinghofer is a known quantity, and it is Christians that have put him in this place (John West and Stephen Meyers). I’m not sure he is even an outlier from the standard Discovery rhetoric (though there are exceptions).

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I understand this behavior. I would also hope that we aspire to a much better standard.

Best,
Chris

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I’m sure you know this, but that is not an effect strategy.

Of course hold yourself to a higher standard, but do not think that others will choose to follow your standard too. If that is what effective dialogue and discourse requires, we are stuck.

I’ve honestly learned a lot form Klinghoffer. Generally speaking, the ID movement and AIG have MUCH better rhetoric than academics, TE/EC, and BioLogos communicators. We would do well to watch, learn, and imitate what they are excellent at, and they excel at rhetoric. Klinghoffer in particular is not even an unkind person, and he is much more lucid in his explanations of what he is doing and why than most. I’ve learned a great deal from him, most personally in learning how not to take ad hominems personally, but using them to pivot towards stronger positions.

Rhetoric is extremely important. Often their rhetorical brilliance is applied to create conflict (at least when it involves us), but the creative task before us to match that with rhetorical brilliance in service of the common good. Rhetoric also enables us to establish the standards by which an disagreement is adjudicated. I cannot be overemphasized how important it is. All to often, I see people adopting rhetoric that effectively undermines their own position. We could do so much better.

Of course, we could still keep better standards as we do it. No need to misrepresent people or attack them, or be divise. But understanding and employing rhetoric is the a more effective strategy that lamenting other’s bad behavior.

Paul had lousy rhetoric - he preached a crucified messiah, after all. Stumbling block to Jews, foolishness to Greeks… but I digress.

If BioLogos ever started imitating the rhetoric of ID or AiG it would be the death of the organization (in my personal opinion). I, for one, would not want to associate with BioLogos if it did such things. I much prefer the humble, gracious approach (not that the organization always lives up to that ideal, and I have not been perfect in that regard, to be sure). But it’s an ideal we hold to.

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I disagree. Act’s 17 is a master class in effective Christian rhetoric.

Even what you quote is an example of effective rhetoric.

That is not what I am saying. I’m not saying we should imitate the combativeness or the misrepresentations of opponents.

Moreover, we can be gracious still. However, gracious does not mean being poor in our rhetoric. These are different things. Effective rhetoric can be very gracious.

Perhaps a better model to understand, who was a master of rhetoric, is Martin Luther King Jr.

I’m not saying to imitate their rhetoric. rather. I’m saying to understand their rhetoric and equally value the importance of making a rhetorically strong appeal.