Senior Scholar Jeff Schloss Reviews “Faith vs. Fact” by Jerry Coyne in The Washington Post | The BioLogos Forum

What is good and evil, God, the soul, emotions, what is beautiful and ugly, has always been understood to be beyond the reach of science, as matters of opinion. There is no scheming going on of “placing God beyond science”, that is perfectly normal to have all these things outside of science. The reverse is an abberation, the rejection of subjectivity is an abberation. Materialism, monism, physicalism, naturalism, atheism, nazism, communism, all these reject subjectivity to a significant extent. That is not normal.

Having emotions is not incompatible with doing science. Only important facts are truth, when it’s not important, it is just facts. And to derive what is important one requires emotions.

@CalebLordPhD

Caleb,

I humbly disagree with you.

John 1 states that Jesus Christ is the Logos, Which is the opposite of being arbitrary and falsifiable. That is not what I say or the Church says, but God says through the Bible and Jesus Christ. If you find what Jesus says and does is arbitrary and not falsifiable, then Jesus and the Bible are wrong. It is that simple, but that is not what I find.

The issue is not theology, but morality. Usually pick arguments over theology when they disagree over morality, but morality is the primary issue for human beings. In basic things agreement. In other issues freedom. In all things love.

Placing emotions, subjectivity, or opinion beyond the realm of science seems to create a dangerous situation. Then opinions are protected from scrutiny and accountability. Although many believers hold that naturalism destroys all basis for morality, this may be more true of faith. When believers appeal to authority (god or scriptures), tradition, or their “heart” as their moral guide, this can be license to do whatever they think God wants them to do, no matter if it causes harm. Even if they believe that the manifest will of God is contained in an ancient book dictated by God, there are still diverse claims of interpretation, layered meanings, and metaphor. At the end, all you have is subjective opinions and a relativist morality that carries the dangerous stamp of God’s approval.

A naturalist ethic or morality in contrast is freed from subjective authority and opinion. The principles of fairness, reciprocity, and altruism are biologically determined and will survive without faith. The “golden rule” is a universally accepted principle. A naturalist morality based on reciprocity and “first do no harm” is much less relativistic and subjective than a morality based on emotion, opinions, or “word of God” because a naturalist ethic can be guided by evidence of harm and benefit. Personal feelings, convictions, and opinions that are protected and exalted as obedience to God, irrespective of harm or benefit – that is the ultimate relativism.

Caleb, there is some truth to some of your claims, particularly the warnings about what some (too many!) believers do with their perceived or claimed mandates from God.

“Placing emotions, subjectivity, or opinion beyond the realm of science seems to create a dangerous situation. Then opinions are protected from scrutiny and accountability.”

This should be restated. I don’t think it is so much about us controlling the placement of all these things, but about us observing where some of them are and remain despite anything we could do. I don’t claim that everything in those three categories (emotions, subjectivity, and opinion) are all beyond science. That some of these things do prove to be beyond science is just an observed reality that is a corollary to recognizing the limitations of empirical scientific methods [which some of us see, but I take it you probably do not acknowledge]. And it definitely is not right to say that these things [beyond science] are then removed from scrutiny or accountability. They are just scrutinized or held to accountability on different grounds, be they religious, emotional, or universally motivated morality.

And on that last note, I think it healthy for unbelievers (if indeed you self-identify with that category) to be acknowledging that there is such a thing as a fairly universal recognition of some morality (even if just one!) It is the beginning of the necessary antidote to the notion that all religions are always mutually exclusive of each other and therefore can be dismissed wholesale without serious consideration --an argument that does not begin to bear the weight so many anti-theists try to put on it.

But the statements of yours that I really take issue with are these.

A naturalist ethic or morality in contrast is freed from subjective authority and opinion. The principles of fairness, reciprocity, and altruism are biologically determined and will survive without faith.

On the contrary, a purely naturalist ethic is, of all the possibilities, the most enslaved to authority and opinion. When you have divorced all ethics from any sort of basis outside yourself or your culture, then you have declared yourself (or your culture) to be the ultimate authority, and those are the hardest from which to break free. Anybody can rebel against a loving God or sacred tradition. But it takes an especially strong person to wrestle free of the crushing tyranny of your own ego once you have set yourself up as Lord. Some might even say escape from that latter imprisonment is impossible short of getting help from outside.

What society really lapses into in the absence of any higher morality outside itself is the situation tried so many (too many!) times through history. A phrase in Judges captures it well: “…and everybody did what was right in their own eyes.” I really wish very much that you were right that we would all just “default” to an obedient golden rule observance. But with all the empirical things we can observe even just from self-reflection, that hope proves to be one of the bigger failures at just about every level from historical to personal.

I know that anti-religionists strive mightily to divide history into two neat categories: all the evil done, of course, by all the religions [especially Christianity], and all the good, done either by science or proto-scientific thinkers - always hounded and hindered by their religious counterparts. But for those of us who don’t approach history so dogmatically with both our eyes closed, swallowing that modern superstition makes belief in a supernatural resurrection look like child’s play.

The fact that capitalism, communism, religion, theism, atheism, scientism, monarchy, democracy, … all the -isms we could name, including Christianity can be and have been enlisted to justify and even perpetuate atrocity is, I’m afraid, an indictment and conviction against such confidence as what you’ve expressed. I do have humanist Christian friends who may not entirely agree with me in all this if it sounds like I’m insisting that human reality is depravity all the way to the core. Genesis 3 is preceded by and does not over-rule, after all, the yet-more-primal Genesis 1 and 2. The “fall” is “merely” an overlay onto a still-very good creation. [a lot of ink been spilled on that ‘overlay’ in these here parts!] So I’m no Calvinist in that regard. But I do maintain that our universal ensnarement underneath the Genesis 3 story requires (and received!) an act from outside ourselves to begin that restoration process. Science, this is not. Nor should it ever condescend to be contained entirely within that domain. Truth, on the other hand … well, that’s what our discussion is all about.

Anyway … thanks for your thoughts that became the occasion for my ramble here.

“I think it healthy for unbelievers (if indeed you self-identify with that category) to be acknowledging that there is such a thing as a fairly universal recognition of some morality”

Morality and ethics evolved as humans developed societies. Selfless and altruistic behaviors may not benefit the individual, but natural selection also works at the level of populations. Behavior that benefits fellow beings which in turn leads a society to prosper as a whole will get selected for naturally. You don’t need to invoke the supernatural to account for morality.

Many facts mentioned in the Bible have already been shown to be wrong, for example the 7-day creation story, young earth, humans developing from just two individuals etc. All these errors clearly show that the Bible was written by ordinary humans whose knowledge was very limited. It beats me why you take an ancient book as the ultimate authority on reality.

@Wayne

I would say, rather, that I don’t need to invoke the supernatural if all I’m interested in is a physical account of morality. You could be completely right as far as your appraisal goes. Many theists, though, think that such an appraisal remains incomplete. As such, we are on trickier ground and of course we won’t all be right either. But that’s a more modest and necessary concession than the unwarranted complete dismissal of all reality or absolute morality beyond empirical verification.

Morality differs in every society, every culture. What’s acceptable for one culture may be unwelcome for another - a testament to the fact that morality evolved multiple times as part of the human cultural evolution. That alone provides a good enough reason to dismiss the notion of a “universally handed down moral code”.

Let me first say that I appreciate the respectful and engaging tone in your comments. It is refreshing. I can relate to your Christian beliefs, having been raised a fundamentalist Christian and then holding increasingly progressive Christian views until very recently. However, I don’t think it is helpful to respond that Christians believe that Christian beliefs are true. Many devout believers from other religions would vehemently dispute those beliefs. If Jesus Christ was the perfect representation of the one true God, then why is there so much disagreement over his identity and his message? I agree that the teachings attributed to Jesus are falsifiable empirically and thus could also be supported empirically. What is unfalsifiable is that “God says through the Bible and Jesus Christ” and that we can actually know what Jesus taught. That is why C.S. Lewis’s “trilemma” doesn’t hold up for me, because it assumes that Jesus actually claimed to be God, and that assumption is held by faith. The survival and success of Christianity is not sufficient evidence that Christianity is not simply a philosophy that arose at the right time in the right culture. The historical evidence suggests that Christian doctrine was established and defended through political power. An internally coherent narrative is thus expected.

It is difficult to separate theology from morality if you make the claim that morality is evidence for your God. If morality is biologically determined, morality is freed from theology and can be guided by harm and benefit (and love).

Caleb, I don’t want to be butting into somebody else’s conversation here; so if Roger (‘Relates’) has been emailing you privately with responses that I can’t see, but that you have been responding to here, I don’t mean to be an unwelcome intruder into that.

But if that was in some part a response to my post above, I will only add a couple points. I do agree that the weakness of Lewis’ trilemma’ has indeed been shown as you state it. Also, as for merely stating beliefs, we all have to start somewhere! And moving onto other starting points doesn’t mean that you are adrift philosophically. You just have new starting points.

Wayne,

It is convenient for atheists to say that “God is a totally unknown and undefined entity,” but that is quite obviously false. The definition (maximally perfect being) is clear enough, even if the precise list of properties entailed by the definition is disputable (resulting from varying notions of perfection). The result is that there is indeed something that will disprove God, and that would be a demonstration that the very concept of God (see above) is logically inconsistent. And so atheistic philosophers have been trying to do just that for a long time. Their lack of success is at least some reason to think that the concept is consistent, though it would be nice if theistic philosophers could convincingly show that it is consistent (which hasn’t been done yet either). If you want to complain that theists should not be allowed to “tweak” the definition in response to crude and silly accusations of inconsistency (such as asking if God can make a rock so big that He cannot move it, etc.), then you are simply forbidding any further analysis of the concept, which is grossly irrational. You need to show that ANY analysis of the concept (using ANY notion of perfection) is doomed to inconsistency. Have at it.

Second, think hard about the conditions you are inviting us to imagine. If the constants were not suitable for life, then… there would be no life and we would not be here to ask the question. So neither Dr. Schloss nor anyone else would be doing anything. The facts that generate the strong pressure toward belief in a Creator are that the constants ARE suitable for life, and that most of the possible values for the constants result in a universe that is NOT suitable for life (further analysis of the word “most” is required here, but we can make sense of it even if we can’t normalize the probability space). It is true that we have to hold everything else fixed while we imagine worlds with different values for a given constant, but the physicists tell us they can do that, and we non-physicists can likewise imagine what they are doing and understand their conclusions. So these are possibilities that we CAN imagine, unlike yours, which requires us to imagine ourselves asking questions when we don’t even exist.

But perhaps you meant to ask what Dr. Schloss would have done if there were no fine-tuning facts, i.e., if most of the values of the constants had turned out to result in a universe conducive to life. The only answer is that there would be no fine tuning argument. The status of theism in that case would be altered somewhat, but it is not clear how. You may not simply assume that theism would have no rational support in that case. Everything Dr. Schloss actually said in the article is correct. We do live in a universe that appears fine-tuned for life. That fact does not require God as an explanation, but it is obviously not incompatible with belief in God. That is simply correct. This is not a case of setting up an unfalsifiable hypothesis. It is a case of citing known scientific facts, and then noting their compatibility with theism. He goes on to suggest that there are no known scientific facts that are incompatible with theism, and that Coyne has claimed that there are, but that he (Coyne) has not presented us with any such facts. And that’s correct too. Unless you have some new ones that no one has thought of before.

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[quote=“CalebLordPhD, post:31, topic:2392”]
It is difficult to separate theology from morality if you make the claim that morality is evidence for your God. If morality is biologically determined, morality is freed from theology and can be guided by harm and benefit (and love.) [/quote]

Thank you for those kind words.

In a sense I think I might agree with Merv. We need to address people where they are. The discussion I addressed was the diffused nature of Christian theology. Rather than try to discuss the theological niceties of different churches, I pointed to the central reality of Jesus Christ the Logos to my definition of Christian theology. I am not trying to prove to an unbeliever that Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity, but Jesus is the center of Who we believe God to be.

emphasized textIt is difficult to separate theology from morality if you make the claim that morality is evidence for your God. If morality is biologically determined, morality is freed from theology and can be guided by harm and benefit (and love).

If I has to choose between arguing about theology and morality with an unbeliever, I would take morality, because that is more important even, although both are very important. Morality is in large part based on biology, but I disagree with how “Darwinian biology” works. Thus I cannot make it separate from theology. Science, morality, and theology are all interdependent.

Subjectivity and the way it works is inherent in common discourse. It has creationist logic, by which I mean that the agency of a decision (agency is what it is that makes the decision turns out the way it does), can only be identified by choosing the answer of what it is.

You are actually saying that the statement “the painting is beautiful” is wrong. Yes you are saying that. You have not thought this through. You are uneducated about how choosing works, because it is not taught anywhere.

Jerry Coyne defines free will in terms of cause and effect, in terms of being forced. This is not after due consideration of various conceptual schemes, which one works best, but simply because he requires good and evil to be regarded as fact. There is no intellectual respectability to the point of view of Coyne, there is no reasoning there, only this absolute insistence to have good and evil be fact.

“there are no known scientific facts that are incompatible with theism”

But there are many scientific facts that are incompatible with a personal monotheism that has revealed itself and intervened in nature and human history. Of course, religions are free to “tweak” their theology in response to discovered scientific facts, but the question is whether that can produce any new knowledge. If the perceived fine-tuning of the universe points to a god (or is not incompatible with a god), then which god? The answer to this question is theological “knowledge” based on claims of special revelation apart from nature, unfalsifiable and ultimately arbitrary.

We should also note that for the vast majority of human history, belief in a personal God has been logically consistent. I wonder if modern believers are not asking too much of themselves when they try to preserve ancient religious narratives that have become illogical in the face of scientific facts.

If a religion is always looking to science (or Scientistic philosophy that is promulgated as if it were science) for its cues and always tweaking itself accordingly to match, then that religion would itself be Scientism, or indistinguishable from it at any rate. I think the two-book metaphor promoted by Augustine all the way up to Biologos today is different from that. It seeks to know and understand creation (one of the books), thereby knowing the Creator better. So if we grant that science is a great (probably the greatest we have) way to apprehend the intricacies and behaviors of creation, then that makes for an excellent, though still fallible source of knowledge. Revelation of God is by definition infallible (in the same way that objective reality also is in a way), though again, our interpretations of writings, prophecies, and visions, etc. is not infallible (just as science is not). Or to untangle that confusion a little better … we have the infallible sources: Revealed Word and creation and we have the corresponding and fallible studies of those things: exegesis and science. Humility is required on all sides. This isn’t quite the same I don’t think as religion always following ‘science’, though you could be excused for confusing the two.

So in the end believers just have to trust that God has made enough understanding from both books accessible enough so that we are without excuse. But to try to grandstand science as if it were a competition with, say, the Bible, is to take two books and try to squeeze them into just one again as if there were only one set of questions [scientific ones] that should interest us. But it just “ain’t so”.

Aren’t you just objecting to choosing altogether? That any decision can turn out several different ways, and this you call arbitrary, and therefore wrong. Choosing is wrong.

@Mohammad_Nur_Syamsu

It sounds like you might be referring to a technical definition “choosing” that I’m not familiar with. I’ve noticed that many of your posts have included the term and it seems to be related somehow to free will. Do you mind explaining what you mean by “choosing”?

To make a possibility, which is in the future, the present or not. Also it can be defined as making one of alternative futures the present.

Choosing is anticipatory.

And this is aimed to correctly reflect the logic in common discourse when people talk in terms of choosing things, and I am satisfied that it is.

There is another definition of choosing, also used in artificial intelligence, which is to sort out an optimal result. However if you look into it, then this automated way of doing things, without any alternative result possible, is not what people regard as real choosing, it is only metaphore.

Caleb,

I doubt that. What scientific facts are these? If you mean that there are many scientific facts that are incompatible with a young-earth scenario, then that’s right. But I hope you’re not equating a young-earth scenario with “personal monotheism that has revealed itself and intervened in nature and human history.” But if you’re not doing that, then what are the known scientific facts that are incompatible with the latter?

John,

“The definition (maximally perfect being) is clear enough”

I have to disagree. “A maximally perfect being” is not a known fact about God. In fact nobody even knows whether God exists let alone whether he is a maximally perfect being. That’s just a believer’s convenient claim regarding God. Because nothing would be impossible for an all-powerful creator and he can be inserted into any situation – as Dr. Schloss just did.

“The result is that there is indeed something that will disprove God, and that would be a demonstration that the very concept of God (see above) is logically inconsistent.”

If so, one could also claim that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy are not logically inconsistent with anything. They could exist in a “realm” beyond nature, very much like how you claim your “maximally perfect” God exists! If one doesn’t have to provide evidence they can make whatever assertion they want.

“atheistic philosophers have been trying to do just that for a long time.”

It’s not the job of atheists to show God does not exist because nobody can prove a negative. If theists claim that there is a God, the onus is on them to furnish proof for it. The only way to prove God’s existence is:
(1) either detect God directly or
(2) rule out all competing explanations for a given phenomenon leaving only God as a possible explanation.

Theists have failed to do either of those.

“If the constants were not suitable for life, then… there would be no life”

Exactly! That’s what I want you to understand. It’s completely natural and expected to find life in a universe where the constants favor it. There’s nothing unnatural about it. It would be unnatural only if life existed in a universe where the constants were unfavorable. In that case one would have had to invoke some miraculous intervention by a supernatural being. But since life exists in a universe where it is favored, the whole “fine-tuning” argument is bogus. It’s like finding snow at the poles. Were the Polar Regions fine-tuned to produce snow? Was the earth fine-tuned to produce mountains? No, these are consequences or fall-outs of preexisting conditions. Likewise, the universe ended up with some random parameters. And life followed as a mere consequence of those values. Now you guys are looking back and saying, gosh those values look perfectly tuned for life!

“most of the possible values for the constants result in a universe that is NOT suitable for life”

Not suitable for life-as-we-know-it. There could be myriad other constants that favor other types of life which we are unaware about. You can’t deny that. The problem is you assume we are special. We are not. There’s nothing that suggests we are special. There could be countless other phenomena which are “more special” than life-as-we-know-it and humans, which different sets of constants can bring about. It’s wrong to think that since there is a universe where humans have risen, that supports the existence of a maximally powerful creator.

“Everything Dr. Schloss actually said in the article is correct. We do live in a universe that appears fine-tuned for life…He goes on to suggest that there are no known scientific facts that are incompatible with theism”

No, Dr. Schloss has nothing new to offer and he is on weak footing. We only find life in a universe where life can occur naturally, entirely as expected. Life is essentially a chemical reaction following natural laws and principles and utilizing elements widespread throughout the universe. Nothing suggests that life is a miraculous and special phenomenon that warrants a supra-universal creator. As such, there’s no case for God here. But theists can still claim that all this is not inconsistent with a creator. That’s easy to do since nobody knows what God is or what his properties and capabilities are or what he actually did where, when and how. God is an ill-defined, vague and ambiguous concept that one can shoehorn into any of the existing theories. Nothing will disprove such a flexible concept. And of course theistic evolutionists can keep on insisting that science and faith are compatible, since all you need to do is accept all of science and say God set everything in motion. Disprove that claim if you can, you silly atheists!