Science supports creationism?

Sigh. Carnivores were never herbivores according to science. I don’t think you understand about Evolution. I have a hard time with it but it’s about mutations the animals have. Someone more knowledgable about Evolution could describe it better.

Modern science does not support Creationism. But it’s not a black or white issue with me. God used Evolution to create so I do believe He created. In light of the mountains of evidence for Evolution.
Of course any interpretation not in line with literalist thinking is viewed as wrong.

I Do believe Adam and Eve could have existed but we’re not the first humans. But the first humans to have knowledge of sin and chose to disobey God anyway.

And there was death before the Fall because an Eco system without death would not work because of over population. Human spiritual death entered after the Fall.

Unlike so many I don’t see a conflict between science and faith. There’s only a conflict if you interpret Scripture literally. I don’t.

Oh and I make a thread to vent. I am tired of creationists posting to try and convince me creationism is true.

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Wonderfully said. Sad some people want to make it this huge deal. If I want to learn about Evolution I’ll go to a site having to do with science. Or read about it in a book. The Bible is not a science book and isn’t supposed to be read or treated as such.

The Word tells you how to get to heaven, not how the heavens go.

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14 posts were split to a new topic: The doctrine of original sin does not work with the evolutionary model

Hello BIll,
What exactly do you mean by “science”? Are you referring to Cosmic Evolution, Chemical Evolution[aka abiogenesis] and Biological[Darwinian] evolution in particular or are you talking about ALL science e.g. biology, chemistry, physics, mathematics etc. in general?
I suspect it’s more of the former in which case it’s understandable that few people want to talk to you about it since they either don’t believe in it like you do or else they simply don’t want to enter into conversations with people who disagree with their viewpoint.

Expecting the Bible to be right about Creation is like expecting an Israelite priest to be right about slavery !!!

Leviticus 25:44-46

Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. [i.e. slaves]

Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen [slaves] for ever . . . but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigor.**

.
.

As we can see, as long as you are not Israelite, you are subject to slavery … and all the slaves descendants too!

The advantage of this point for BioLogos supporters is you don’t have to get drawn into an argument about what science the ancients knew, or any of that. It doesn’t take science to conclude that slavery is wrong. And it doesn’t take sophisticated statistical analysis of bible verses to see the Israelite priests were wrong about slavery.

So Jammycakes, what conclusion did YOU draw from their research? Was it a valid conclusion regarding an accelerated decay rate to be drawn from their experiments?
What about the research done by the evolutionist group who examined the rate of escape of Argon from feldspar crystals:
Harrison, T.M., Morgan, P., and Blackwell, D.D., Constraints on the age of heating at the Fenton Hill site, Valles Caldera, New Mexico.
If you cannot invalidate their methods and conclusion then even YOU have the problem of explaining what happened to the excess heat that would have been generated by the decay. Most of the critics of the project have been in personal contact with the researchers and their arguments have been put to bed, so quoting them isn’t going to help. But of course you have to make up your own mind as to whether the experimental process was valid and grounds enough to reach the conclusion the(RATE) researchers did.

Just a quick guide to terminology:

“Cosmic Evolution” is called “astrophysics” outside Young-Earther circles
“Biological Evolution” is called “evolution” or simply “biology” outside Young-Earther circles
“Abiogenesis” is called “speculation” unless your name is Richard Dawkins or you otherwise write venomous antitheist screeds.

The first two are generally known as “science.” The last, as discussed previously, is not.

I know your comment wasn’t directed at me, but I thought I’d jump in and clarify the nonstandard terminology…

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First. The heat problem was their own admission. They themselves admitted that no known thermodynamic mechanism could have removed that amount of heat quickly enough, so they had to propose extremely complex solutions involving esoteric, bizarre, convoluted new laws of physics that are not supported by any evidence whatsoever. Problems of this level of severity are, quite frankly, a deal-breaker.

Second. Accelerated nuclear decay is an extraordinary claim, the kind that would win a Nobel Prize if it had any merit, not least because it flies in the face of both theoretical considerations and experimental evidence. As such, it needs extraordinary evidence to support it, including studies from multiple independent teams. The only evidence that we have are four disputed studies of uncertain reliability at best from a single team.

This isn’t a biased “evolutionist” response either. There are other examples from mainstream science that suffer from exactly the same problems. One particularly famous example was Fleischmann & Pons’s 1988 announcement of cold nuclear fusion. Other teams were unable to replicate it, and it’s now regarded by the scientific community as erroneous. This level of scrutiny is standard practice in science, and researchers are expected to address objections to their reviewers’ satisfaction, not try to argue their way past them.

Third. Even if these studies could be shown to have some merit, it is never made clear exactly how they are supposed to demonstrate accelerated nuclear decay. It is inferred solely from the fact that they can’t fit the evidence into six thousand years any other way.

Fourth. We need to ask ourselves why would God have gone to the trouble of miraculously accelerating nuclear decay in the first place and putting an extraordinary cooling mechanism in place to remove the heat? The only result of doing so would have been to make the earth look a whole lot older than it actually is. All they’ve managed to do is to propose a convoluted new take on the Omphalos hypothesis.

Fifth. The paper you cite merely shows that one event at Fenton Hill happened more recently than certain other studies suggested. There could be any number of explanations for the discrepancy, and further research may well shed some light on this. However, it places no maximum constraint whatsoever on the overall age of the earth, and fails to account for the numerous other studies elsewhere that place minimum constraints on the age of the earth far, far in excess of six thousand years.

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Let’s see. The list would be geology, biology, and astrophysics mostly. The problem is they make comments that are demonstrably false but I can’t make comment. If I were to do so I would be labeled an atheist. I even tried to gently point out that a set of arguments a member was using was identified as arguments that shouldn’t be used by AIG and ICR and the member quite speaking to me. Still uses those arguments btw. It is stronger than “they simply don’t want to enter into conversations”. It is I would be shown the door just for bringing it up.

YECers are more interested in proselytizing than in discussions of their ideas. They like to use scientific sounding language to support their position, hoping to convince “atheistic” people who accept science that theYEC position is more scientific than mainstream science One claim made frequently by creationist groups is that mainstream scientists no longer really believe in evolution. That statement was almost true 100 years ago, when Mendelian heredity seemed to invalidate the idea that creatures could change other than in very minor ways. in Darwin’s time, it was believed that offspring represented a blending of their parents traits. With one of Darwin’s major assumptions shown to be false, his whole theory seemed to have fallen apart.

Laboratory experiments showed very few variations from a starting population. However, field studies showed that’s wild populations exhibited tremendous variation. These two positions were finally brought together in the modern synthesis of the 1940s.

Creationist groups exploit every misstep of science over the centuries to cast doubt on any scientific conclusion about the world, therefore keeping the Bible just as valid an explanation of how the world came to be as the findings of science.

I hate to think of how much ink has been spilled and how many hours of argument have resulted from people who say they believe in the Bible, but have no idea what it means.

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Perhaps I should have asked you a much more direct question.
The researchers got a conclusive result that showed that there were much more helium atoms present than should have been for a given constant rate of decay and the measured rate of escape from the crystals. Now since the concentration of helium inside the crystals were much higher than outside and the crystals were intact[meaning that helium [or Uranium, Thorium and lead for that matter could not have come from the outside], just what conclusion would YOU have drawn from the research data?

Hi Prode -

A multidomain model is both more consistent with the wide body of helium diffusion in zircons and with the Fenton Hill data. Using this better model results in an age of 1.5 B years for the Fenton Hill zircons. (Technical paper and follow-up)

In addition, any attempt to apply the RATE methodology to other zircon formations yields vastly inaccurate predictions. (link)

Given these detailed rebuttals by highly qualified geologists, I don’t feel I can accept the RATE conclusions on the basis of scientific reasoning.

If I started out convinced that the earth cannot be more than 7000 years old, that atheist scientists cannot be trusted, and that Christians who agree with those scientists are compromisers, then I might accept the RATE conclusions anyway. But I don’t start with that conviction.

Have a good day.

Chris Falter

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Hi Prode,

The first thing I would do would be to seek peer review by independent diffusion chemistry experts, and reproduction of the results by other teams. Without this, we simply can not consider the results to be conclusive. This is standard practice in science.

This is doubly the case for helium diffusion in zircons. Diffusion studies are very complex, both theoretically and practically, and very complex studies mean that there is a lot of scope for error or experimenter bias to creep in. Unrealistic diffusion models, incorrect assumptions about the thermal history of the rocks, and even basic errors such as misidentification of rock samples and arithmetic errors can all drastically affect your interpretation of the results, while experimenter error can affect the results themselves.

As Chris has pointed out, not only have expert peer reviews of the RATE results been uniformly negative, but other teams have obtained results from similar studies that contradict them.

In any case, the conclusion – massively accelerated nuclear decay – is, as I’ve said, an extraordinary one, strongly contradicted by theoretical considerations, multiple other lines of experimental and observational evidence, and the RATE team’s own admission of serious unresolved problems with the idea. You do not introduce radical new laws of physics on the basis of a single set of disputed studies by a single team working with a predefined agenda.

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what about the possibility that ervs actuualy evolved from the genomes?

try 20 my:

http://www.amjbot.org/content/91/4/615.long

I stand corrected. My source for that claim was this blog post by @Joel_Duff – I may have misunderstood it slightly. However, it doesn’t affect his central point: soft tissue and DNA preservation in ancient fossils is very rare—far more so than we would expect if the earth were just 6,000 years old. There is also a correlation between DNA preservation and radiometric dating, which needs to be explained by anyone who believes radiometric results to be invalid.

Try finding a denomination on high side of your chart that takes Biblical sexual morals seriously. For example, uncompromising disapproval of sex outside of marriage. Going a bit farther, I have commented elsewhere in this forum that the LGBTQ agenda does not leave room for a recognizable Biblical sexual ethic. The church closest to my house has no problem with evolution, and is also on the LGBTQ bandwagon. In Denver, the UMC just ordained an openly homosexual female pastor.

For some of us, a figurative dimension to some Old Testament history does not imply elasticity of Biblical ethical commands. We would rather not take our children to a church where this world’s view of sexual morals is advocated–they can pick that philosophy up anywhere.

@Darek_Barefoot, I recommend you read up on the history of sexual morality. It’s not as black and white as you seem to think it is.

The Old Testament made working on the Sabbath a death offence. When you are willing to take the Sabbath laws as seriously as concern over sexual morality, I will be moved to consider the totality of these views.

I find it interesting that you started with sex and ended with much broader ethical commands.

I find the selectivity of literalism fascinating, especially when it is applied to the OT over the NT. Do any of the denominations with stands on sexual morality that are acceptable to you take the words of Jesus Himself in Matthew 25 seriously and literally with respect to legal and illegal immigrants?

John 12:47
“. . . if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world."

not according to this paper:

, “Biomolecules in fossil remains: Multidisciplinary approach to endurance, The Biochemist”-

the upper limit is about 125000 years in 0c. so there is no correletion between DNA preservation and radiometric dating. at least in this case.