Science looks at cause and effect. Does that apply to grace?

Faith & Science Conversation
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Ooops. Correction. Forgiveness by itself is EVIL!

When you do something wrong you should feel guilt. The guilt is good. The guilt motivates you to change. If you are simply forgiven and you do not change, then sin and evil remains.

So why is forgiveness even offered? It is because sometimes guilt paralyzes and makes you think you cannot change. Therefore Jesus says, “Your sins are forgiven, so go and sin no more.” Without the second part, the first part is meaningless. The second part is the whole point.

The destination hardly matters. Wherever you go, sin will change it into hell.

From sin.

God is not the enemy. Your greatest enemy is yourself. The enemy of mankind is itself and the self-destructive things people do.

Without judgement there can be no change. First you must accept that what you did was wrong. This is called repentance. Without that, forgiveness is wrong… doubly so… and thus evil.

Sin creates hell. Guilt motivates repentance and change so it makes heaven possible.

But… Sometimes guilt can become too heavy and lead to despair. In that case forgiveness can open the way to repentance. But if forgiveness does not lead to repentance then it only confirms the sin and your situation is much worse than before – the sin owns you.

Heaven is not a reward.

Heaven is a consequence of goodness.

Sin destroys goodness and creates hell… no matter where you are.

We are proclaiming Jesus who says, “Your sins are forgiven, so go and sin no more.”

Proclaiming a belief in Jesus just like knowing the law entitles you to nothing. It is only doing what Jesus says or following the law which matters.

Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts

Whether people know anything of Christianity or not, it is those who have the law of God written on their hearts who are in heaven.

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That’s an interesting thought!

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One of my friends told that he listened when the gospel was preached and became a believer without feeling guilt or regret of his earlier life (he was <20 years old and lived decent life so not much to regret). After becoming a believer, then he started to feel his wickedness and the need of forgiveness.
This friend has given much of his life to serving God and people in addition to having his secular work.

Seems that the works of God are not tied to a strict protocol, first one thing, second something other, third xxx. Whatever way it happens, if the endpoint is salvation then there is a reason to be happy.

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24

That was a nice way to say it, thanks.

One problem with saying that someone needs to ‘accept’ the gift is that many do not understand what it is all about. It is not just saying ‘thanks’ and living with the gift, it is accepting that Jesus is the Lord of the whole life. It is surrendering to the King, even if there would not be any feelings of surrendering.

At the same time, it is an acceptance of the need to get forgiveness, of the need to get peace with God, to confess the dominion of King Jesus in my life. It is accepting and saying ‘Jesus is the Lord’, in earnest. Although we cannot ‘attain’ grace by our actions, the process of being given the grace includes our acceptance. That is why I do not see it as something wrong if the need to accept the reality is told as ‘accept the gift’. Despite the shortcomings, it is often better than saying ‘repent’ because for many, ‘repent’ gives the message that you must first correct wrong habits in your life, only after that can you get forgiveness and grace.

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25

I started to think if there is any relationship between grace and accepting/denying the conclusions based on scientific observations. Maybe there is a weak connection through attitudes but I am not sure if there are other links. What do you think?

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I agree with everything but that rebellion part. That is only an experience of those raised Christian snapping back to their authoritarian morality after rebelling against it. But it is absurd to project “rebellion” on people just because they are not Christian, or on Adam and Eve for that matter (there is NO rebellion in that story WHATSOEVER!).

But otherwise YES. Grace is a surrender – giving yourself completely vulnerable over to the surgeon. For many it will not seems so much like a gift. There may be complications, recovery time and therapy needed.

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Grace has nothing to do with the recipient. Accepting grace may involve a change but it dos not affect the giving or the existence of grace itslf.

God gave with no caveat or conditions.

Any obligation or condition for receiving grace is man made.

Richard

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“Come ye weary, heavy laden; lost and ruined by the fall;
If you tarry 'til you’re better, you will never come at all.”

is the first thing that comes to my mind upon reading that.

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I don’t think having a more naturalistic perception at life undermines the ability to give or receive grace.

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30

Extremely tenuous at best. I remember reading about a Christian who was so conspicuously laid back and peaceful (it’s been long enough that I’m not sure those are the best adjectives and adverb) that someone asked him if he was a Buddhist. So yes, there are scientific observations possible between someone’s mindset and attitudes, but not that could necessarily be directly connected to God’s grace.

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I love that hymn.

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32

It is not our goodness, however – it is our Lord’s goodness (and it is also rewarding to him)

Our being there (not in our present sinful condition!) is a reward for Jesus:

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2

But we can certainly enjoy him now, and he us, to one degree or another.

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WRONG! Sounds attractive and pious – great for itching ears. But wrong!

It is the goodness of ALL of its inhabitants. This is why Jesus said you must be perfect even as your Heavenly father is perfect. It not because we cannot makes mistakes and it is not because God cannot tolerate sin. It is because of the destructive nature of sin itself. Heaven and sin are incompatible. One person can turn any place into hell by their behavior. This is demonstrable, not to mention a common experience of people everywhere. Heaven is not in the scenery but in the people who inhabit the place.

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ABSOLUTELY! Are you sure? :grin:

I would rather focus on Jesus’ righteousness than my own, for obvious reasons.

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True as far as it goes.

God works to save everyone without condition. That is grace. And there is no salvation without it. It starts with God and ends with God. Salvation is and always will be the work of God – His accomplishment, NOT OURS.

But if you say God requires nothing of us, then that is a lie. He requires us to make a choice and have faith. To be sure it is God’s grace which not only makes this choice possible (rescuing enough of our free will from sin), but also to give us the desire to make the right choice. But it is not only up to God or guaranteed by divine magic. The choice is still ours even then. This is because the aim of God is love which requires free choice not control.

ABSOLUTELY!

I do not fault that.

My righteousness? Where? I don’t see it.

The righteousness of God? Now that I can see.

Clearly we need a gigantic amount of grace before heaven is a possibility for us.

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We agree there. But I expect the environment apart from the inhabitants won’t be terrible.

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Then that is a ‘work’ added to grace and I made the right choice! Shall we have a little chat about the reality of relativistic physics, the illusion of time and God’s omnitemporality. Oh yeah, and predestination and its inapplicability to the dynamic interface between God and us.

38

Incorrect. This Calvinist rhetoric is nonsensical. Accepting a gift does not change the gift into something which is earned. And let’s forgo tired repetition of your misunderstandings of physics and the Bible.

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I known some who take a certain amount of pride in their ‘decision’ and having made ‘the right choice’. Grace includes being raised from the dead, spiritually speaking. The dead do not make any choices.

Your labels do not change reality.

 

Are you still denying the existence of ‘spacetime slices’?

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Yes… I have known these also. Those who think salvation is one of their accomplishments in life and something they have some entitlement to because of some religious thing they have done.

But there is a BIG difference between saying God requires us to make a choice and saying our choice provides us with a guarantee.