And that is supposd to prove what?
Each theory stands on its own, but you never appreciate that.
Richafd
Semantics. You can read “intention” in what I said as simply referring to “what they were made to do.” This has nothing to do with why and whether the match lights or not.
The thread seems to still be somewhat disordered from the move, so my response got lost. Ah yes it is the second post of the thread.
How can you claim that? You clearly have no idea what I meant or maybe what it is to be religious.
My faith is my life, but it does not prevent me from seeing what is around me, nor do I impose that faith onto it or the people in it. To all intents and purposes my faith is a code of practice and guidance much as army rules and regs do for the military.
should be taken at face value and not convoluted or twisted into some sort of power trip or attempt at control or domination.
Richard
Oh, the irony.
What makes you think I was not aware of it?
Richard
Edit,
You seem to think that you have the knowledge and authority to criticise my understanding of Scripture
Exactly what I think of only appealing to efficient and material causes as explanations of reality. How can anything (e.g. final causes) else fit when we simply don’t see anything else?
That is what scientism does. Christianity loves science because it’s a study of God’s creation. It also provides a suitable framework for it. I believe philosophy and science shared the same naturally theology umbrella until the 19th century. The conflict model between science and religion is made up and conflict only exists for a small portion of believers prone to literalism.
I agree 100%. To live is Christ, to die is gain. Or as C.S. Lewis said: ‘I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.’
Viewing reality primarily through a lens of meaningless assemblages of atoms operating via meaningless forces (efficient and material causes) offers nothing but nihilism to the world. But I think @mitchellmckain tries to compartmentalize things between objective and subjective realms. But this bifurcation is specious to me. Some put science on a pedestal, and that makes
it out to be what they often criticize or speak disparagingly of—a religion.
Science finds scientific truth just as a metal detector finds metal on a beach. That doesn’t mean there are not other things buried in the sand because the metal detector could not detect them nor does 10 million successful finds of a metal detector make it anything more than a device that finds exactly what it looks for.
Vinnie
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That is an analogy I approve of
Richard
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I would argue that some believers also buy into a type of scientism which leads to them to think the discovery of a natural process excludes God.
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Except you can (and should) accept filters for specialized activities without making them filters for all of reality. It is only when you do the latter that the filters become blinders. It is absolutely ridiculous for a plumber/doctor not to restrict his plumbing/medical work to the knowledge of plumbing/medicine instead of forcing everything under the sun from football to politics and religion into his work.
We put blinders on the horses which they don’t have by nature to force them to do one thing in exclusion of all the things they should do for life in general. I suppose you can say some people decide to put blinders on themselves so they can better run a race they think is all important. But others, seeing how those people run rough shod over everything else they refuse to see, have good cause to question the value of what they are doing.
INCORRECT.
scientism: thought or expression regarded as characteristic of scientists.
AND this includes the compartmentalization necessary to all professionals with the rational understanding not everything is science.
You confuse this with the philosophical position of naturalism which equates reality to science – a position often adopted by people sick and tired of religious people pushing their personal subjective decisions upon everybody else!!!
I just happen to be someone who does BOTH with some expertise, with a masters degrees in both physics and divinity. EVERYONE with any competence compartmentalizes because it is criminally unprofessional not to do so. So all scientists compartmentalize even those who pretend otherwise though you can say that some (with a philosophical choice of naturalism) push their science into portions of life where it doesn’t really belong.
Religion finds religious truth just as a child finds sand castles in the sand on a beach. That doesn’t mean everyone has to find those same sand castles in the sand. Though some of us might think it sad if they cannot or will not even try do so.
And even if it is to a much lesser degree, some of us feel sad when a person cannot or refuses to do the other as well. It seems to me that a more complete person can do both. To be sure life requires the subjective things such as found in religion and I think it is somewhat delusional to refuse seeing this. But life is rich and there is so much to see, experience, and be a part of. And all I can say is thank God there are people who don’t wear blinders to only run that particular race. Because otherwise human civilization would fall and like the dark ages people would only do religion in their short filthy lives because it is really all they can do.
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To some of us, that is cognitive dissonance where by the two parts never combine and even oppose each other.
You are proud of something I see as wrong.
Each to their own, I guess
Richard
Well I certainly will not say it is wrong for people to limit themselves to the only things they can handle.
And while I don’t see it is wrong that some people limit themselves by choice to only one aspect of life and leave all their other abilities undeveloped, it does seem a waste and a shame to me.
But I certainly do see it as wrong when they try to force everyone to ignore all the abilities and talents God gave them to only run that one race they think is so important. And frankly it looks a bit self-serving to me, remaking everything in their own image just so they will be on top.
In fact, I see a parable in the Bible as being applicable to this…
Matthew 25:14 “For it will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property; 15 to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them; and he made five talents more. 17 So also, he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow; 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’
Yes I think those who refuse to use all their talents and capabilities by always wearing blinders (implying a fearful approach to life) are like the servant condemned in this parable. But I think it really only crosses the line when like a “log in the eye” they judge everyone else by their own choices. Only then should they expect to be judged just as they have judged others.
Though it does seem that the parable implies more… that those don’t use all the abilities and talents God has given them are really not giving 100% after all. It suggests the blinders they wear to focus on the race are also shutting out the fullness of God.
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I really do not see how your mind is working. I am ignoring nothing. i have a diverse life that is not just church centred. However, I have a set of values and a code of practice that permeates all of it. I am still a Christian while buying and selling, or going to the Zoo.
Richard
Again this is not about you. Never was. It is about principles. If you agree then simply agree.
Or even better… explain what points you agree on and what points you disagree with… even if you have to break it down when you think I have simplified things to much. If that is too much work, you can try for a qualified approach… where you say you agree up to a point but you still think my approach is lacking something. At least that way I might think about what I could be missing.
Though…
To those we notice who have extended their scientific understanding too far to force things in life which shouldn’t, into the objective standards of science, we can also point out those who essentially do the same thing in the other direction, forcing things which shouldn’t, into the subjective standards of religion.
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Absolutely! Otherwise we’d have to spend until we reached sixty years old just in school: specialization requires compartmentalization.
I’d say more like kids finding a big mound of wet sand on a beach and saying, “There’s a sand castle in there somewhere!”
What about those who can’t because they have too many talents? In high school and college both I was encouraged to go into engineering, forestry, languages, music, and more due to talents in those areas, but to try to do all would be to do any one only poorly.
And I knew a guy in university who tried finding classes he couldn’t get an A in, but he soaked up knowledge and understanding like a sponge regardless of the subject; he excelled in all STEM areas and all the humanities plus fencing, ballroom dance, rock climbing, surfing, cycling . . . anything he put his mind to. Yet in the end he had to pick something (he went with civil engineering and architecture plus math plus Spanish, a B.S., another B.S., and a B.A., aiming to work in the southern US and Mexico).
Personally that parable has always bothered me because I think I’d be a guy given five talents and would only earn two more.
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The parable doesn’t condemn this. It may not cover all the variations but it does recognize that people are different.
What it condemns are those so fearful that they only give back what they have been given – I include those who only parrot scripture and will not invest anything in understanding what it means.
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Of course. You both do so.
Richard
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