Science and pantheism

Just as Flat Earthers don’t have to believe the Earth is round.

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Do we really have to argue about whether something is an argument or not?

I’m not trying to. I’m just pointing out to others that what they do has consequences. Like, for example, if you say things that are characteristic of what YECs say then people will think you are a YEC whether you are one or not. And you don’t get to control that either.

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You will never ‘know’ how serious I am even though you may not understand it. I have put some serious thought into responding to some of these posts. My position would be that some things are beyond finding out even though you may think, for the time being, that you have it all sown up.

I’m not a troll (whatever that means to you) and I am not playing a game of ‘devils advocate’ but you don’t have to believe that either.

It’s my real name up there. I can be found on Linkedin… I have a professional track record in Graphic Design and this is who I am. I’m a Christian believer and that is all I need to be.

My motive was for some serious engagement- and- no I don’t know all the scientific arguments etc. I know very little in fact. I’ve been as honest as I can be. Believe it or don’t believe it- that’s up to you.

But your post- about me- is very unkind.

How do you determine what can or can’t be figured out?

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I’m a bit confused here … I thought you said you had a degree in geology?

No- I have a UK qualification for degree entry level which I gained about 40 years ago. I’m sure this is what I said.

OK thanks. My apologies, I must have missed that.

I don’t ‘determine’ anything and I don’t think anyone can. Now if you were to ask ‘what do you believe’? That’s a different thing.

OK.-Thanks.

That’s not what you said before.

“My position would be that some things are beyond finding out even though you may think, for the time being, that you have it all sown up.”

So how do you determine if something is beyond finding out? You aren’t talking about what you may or may not believe. You are telling us what we can or can’t know.

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No- I’m definitely not telling you in the sense of commanding (determining) you to believe anything I have said. It’s up to you what you make of it. Believe what you believe to be the truth- its over to you.

Just don’t confuse this with thinking that you ‘know’ it as an incontestable fact. There are relatively few beliefs that are totally incontestable. This is not the same as saying that there is no such thing as truth. Unlike the postmodernists I do ‘believe’ that there is objective truth, but it is not ‘I’ who determines what that actually is.

What I am saying is that this is what I personally ‘believe’. I have made some arguments- yes. However, As I see, I don’t believe that I personally determine anything. All determination I leave to God.

I don’t see an inconsistency here- I don’t think. If you do, I don’t think I can help with that. :sunglasses:

You aren’t telling what I can believe. You are telling me what I can know, which is a very different thing.

That’s rather binary thinking. Do you think something is either incontestable fact or unknowable? Do you think there is any room for well supported conclusions? Is there any room for the admission that there is mountains of evidence supporting a conclusion?

But you do seem to accept the postmodernist thought that we can’t know anything about reality, so whatever you believe is equal to whatever someone else believes, all of which is propped up by a willing ignorance of the evidence.

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Then I do apologize. I felt you were being a little provocative and insincere which is pretty much the way I experience someone who is trolling on the internet. Hardly a hanging offense but I don’t think it repaid the professing scientists in kind for the answers they were giving you. But you can decide how big a deal that is for someone who is defending their theological interpretations from Christians who don’t see things the same way.

It’s not a matter of belief. You don’t get to choose what kindergarten science to ‘believe’. Nothing about believing in God in Christ Jesus is dependent on not submitting, like God, to the fact of evolution. God is humble. And sound. He does not, can not believe. That would would be arrogance. He knows. He knows that there is only one way to do nature. Nature’s way,

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Thank you for your apology. It’s very rare.

Respect.

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If you say so.

Yep.

                     

Not me, reasoned faith says so. Only an irrational therefore fear driven institutionalized epistemology can doubt science and bring faith in to disrepute. So what are you afraid of mate?

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Not afraid-mate. I’m fine.

I maintain one can still doubt Darwinism and still fully keep one’s intellectual integrity. You say I ‘must’ believe it. I say I don’t have to- neither am I obliged. This is what you can’t accept and there is the impasse so we should probably leave it there, lest we continue to waste each other’s time. :slightly_smiling_face:

BTW I find Alvin Plantinga’s arguments on Naturalism & Evolution convincing (You Tube) although I realise there are counter arguments.

Again and again and again: It’s not a matter of belief. I find Platinga specious and the best of a very bad lot. His premiss isn’t convincing in the slightest.