So God has no choice to come into this world like he sees fit. He can appear in a burning bush but he can’t be fully human, let alone come as the lowest of the low.
Mary did not consent to being raped but to raise the child in the name of God
If it is not more morally uncomfortable than the cross one must hate women. On the cross you could say that Jesus took the pain upon himself, in the case of an unwanted child he put the pain on someone else.
For our salvation Jesus has to come alive in us and enter our heart, not as a third person.
There is a difference between Christ-like resurrection and being revived from death back to this life. Christ-like resurrection includes getting a ‘heavenly’, immortal body, being revived back to this life means continuing life in the same mortal body until you die again. A huge difference.
Your comments give the impression that you have an extreme viewpoint in this matter: anyone who has been revived back to life has not been really dead.
That is what I have tried to say here, in this thread, and what I believe. It is my understanding that reported NDEs often, but I suspect do not always happen and less often get reported. The “death” that you speak of–the revival in the same flesh and blood body.–are impressive events, but they are not the same thing as what happened in the “resurrection of Jesus Christ”.
Those “revived” people don’t walk through walls and pop into and out of places in this world after they have been revived. But Jesus and everybody who is resurrected like him, can and will. That is “the resurrection and the life everlasting” that I confess in the creeds, not the “revival” that many Christians think will happen. And that’s why I told Evan what I told him, and what he still refuses to recognize and believe.
Let him who has ears hear.
I am not afraid of death in this world. I look forward to “the roller coaster ride” into the life everlasting.
Yes, I can confirm that is true
I think what we really need to remind ourselves of, is that there was no such thing as medicine at the time. So no way of telling if someone was really dead. However, I don’t think the fact that these people were actually alive when “resurrected” makes these events any less impressive, if that’s the right word to use.
Ah yes, that one! Still baffled by it and no idea how to explain it either. Perhaps someone has an idea? lol
That is my view also and I don’t understand what’s so extreme about it. Do you believe that someone who really died can be revived back into their flash and blood body?
Yes. I believe that Lazarus was really dead, and that there have been many dead persons who have been revived back to this mortal life during the 2000 years history of Christianity.
If God is the Lord of life and death, the Creator, and we believe that He can heal a fatally ill person, why could He not revive a dead person back to life?
After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” …
“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.” Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this? …
“Take away the stone,” he said. “But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”
That’s easy – Lazarus. He’d been in the tomb long enough his body started to decay. Jesus deliberately waited until there was no doubt that Lazarus was dead.
That has nothing to do with Christianity, it’s just an irrational way of ignoring what actually is claimed.
I’ve studied the transmission of the scriptures over the centuries, and there’s been very little “rearrangement” except early in the development of the New Testament canon before a standard order of the books was arrived at.
Just one example of a different arrangement: it wasn’t uncommon for the epistles of John and the Apocalypse to be put right after John’s Gospel.
Well of course not, any more than new information will change the eclipse observations made that confirmed Einstein’s theory. There can’t be any new information about that, either; once you have the data nothing is going to change that data.
“Magical” does not equal “supernatural”. “Magical” is most likely a subset of “supernatural”, but there is more to the supernatural than the magical.
What God are you talking about? A being that would “mollycoddle us” wouldn’t be worthy of worship because its goal would obviously to keep us from growing.
That’s your cultural prejudice, and more evidence that you are just building your own religion by changing the meanings of the scriptures.
If Jesus was born of a natural process, then he had two human parents and no divine one, and thus would not be God.
He did become flesh by a particular manipulation of reality, one where God became man – not adopted a man or any such thing.
Pointed way to put it!
For our salvation to be true Messiah had to take on the full reality of human life starting at conception; anything He did not take on He couldn’t fix.
Not at all if you read the whole account – He was waiting to be sure there was no doubt that Lazarus had died.
Jesus said Lazarus was “really, really dead”.
Jesus raised him; there was no “request”, only a command.
Even Martha understood better than this, recognizing the difference between a resurrection to ordinary life and the one at the last day.
There was the stink test.
It’s extreme because it’s the fallacy of redefining terms to fit your view.
As for the question, if God can command the earth to “Bring forth!” living things and it did so, inanimate becoming animate, then reviving someone back into their body is simple since all the right ‘ingredients’ are right there.
That is not strictly true. The Bible gives explanations that are not scientifically plausible, but many people want to take them at face value, especially if the explanation is assigned to God’s direct influence.
It’s a bit like Biblical Justice. There is an underlying belief that good is rewarded and evil loses, sometimes, especially at the end of Job, this counteracts the whole point of the story. Job’s restoration is Biblical Justice, but the point of the story was that righteousness does not promise wealth, health and longevity.
The Baptism Site “Bethany beyond the Jordan” (Al-Maghtas) is considered by the majority of the Christian Churches to be the location where John the Baptist baptised Jesus.
Relevance?
That’s roughly where Jesus was at, when he received word that Lazarus was sick.
John 10:40 - “Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. There he stayed, …”
Where were Lazarus, Martha, and Mary at?
John 11:1-3. "Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 (This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair.) 3 So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one you love is sick.” In other words, they were in Bethany; but not in the “Bethany beyond the Jordan”. They were in the other Bethany, the one near Jerusalem.
The two Bethany’s were about 61.8 kilometers apart. 61.8 kilometers = 38.40074 miles. That’s a healthy walk in one day. a comfortable walk in two days.
So, Jesus was in “Bethany beyond Jordan” north of the Dead Sea, east of Jerusalem, when he is told that Lazarus is sick. He waits two days, before going to the other Bethany, near Jerusalem. And, let’s assume that he takes two days to get from the first Bethany to the second Bethany.
And when he gets there, he “finds out” that Lazarus has been dead four days and is in a tomb. So much for his words: ““This sickness will not end in death.”
What does Jesus do next?
38 Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39 “Take away the stone,” he said.
“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”
40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”
43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!”
44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”
=====
So-o-o … Lazarus has been dead four days, at least three+, and NO BRAIN DAMAGE or body rot. Gee, that sounds like a supernatural miracle. That sounds like a repeatable experiment to do, all for God’s glorry, of course. Volunteers?
Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”*
Looks like he did more than “only make a command”.
Quibble, quibble.
Luke 7:11-15. " 11 Soon afterward, he [Jesus] went to a town called Nain, and his disciples and a great crowd went with him.
12 As he drew near to the gate of the town, behold, a man who had died was being carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow, and a considerable crowd from the town was with her.
13 And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her and said to her, “Do not weep.”
14 Then he came up and touched the bier, and the bearers stood still. And he said, “Young man, I say to you, arise.”
15 And the dead man sat up and began to speak, and Jesus gave him to his mother."
Probably very recently “dead”, not dead four days.
Mark 5:21-22; "Jesus went back across to the other side of the lake. There at the lakeside a large crowd gathered around him.
22 Jairus, an official of the local synagogue, arrived, and when he saw Jesus, he threw himself down at his feet
23 and begged him earnestly, “My little daughter is very sick. Please come and place your hands on her, so that she will get well and live!”
24 Then Jesus started off with him.
…
35 While Jesus was saying this, some messengers came from Jairus’ house and told him, “Your daughter has died. Why bother the Teacher any longer?”
36 Jesus paid no attention to what they said, but told him, “Don’t be afraid, only believe.”
37 Then he did not let anyone else go on with him except Peter and James and his brother John.
38 They arrived at Jairus’ house, where Jesus saw the confusion and heard all the loud crying and wailing.
39 He went in and said to them, “Why all this confusion? Why are you crying? The child is not dead—she is only sleeping!”
40 They started making fun of him, so he put them all out, took the child’s father and mother and his three disciples, and went into the room where the child was lying.
41 He took her by the hand and said to her, “Talitha, koum,” which means, “Little girl, I tell you to get up!”
42 She got up at once and started walking around. (She was twelve years old.) When this happened, they were completely amazed.
43 But Jesus gave them strict orders not to tell anyone, and he said, “Give her something to eat.”
The bible doesnt struggle with scientific explanations, nor does Job not promise health and wealth (given Job received twice as much as he had before his trials at the hands of Satan).
two biblical examples of God giving riches are shown below:
Reward for Tithing Malachi 3:10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.
Reward to King Solomon for humility 1 Kings 3: 5One night at Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream, and God said, “Ask, and I will give it to you!”
6Solomon replied, “You have shown much loving devotion to Your servant, my father David, because he walked before You in faithfulness, righteousness, and uprightness of heart. And You have maintained this loving devotion by giving him a son to sit on his throne this very day.
7And now, O LORD my God, You have made Your servant king in my father David’s place. But I am only a little child, not knowing how to go out or come in. 8Your servant is here among the people You have chosen, a people too numerous to count or number.
9Therefore give Your servant an understanding heart to judge Your people and to discern between good and evil. For who is able to govern this great people of Yours?”
10Now it pleased the Lorda that Solomon had made this request. 11So God said to him, “Since you have asked for this instead of requesting long life or wealth for yourself or death for your enemies—but you have asked for discernment to administer justice— 12behold, I will do what you have asked. I will give you a wise and discerning heart, so that there has never been nor will ever be another like you.
13Moreover, I will give you what you did not request—both riches and honor—so that during all your days no man in any kingdom will be your equal.14So if you walk in My ways and keep My statutes and commandments, just as your father David did, I will prolong your days.”
So long as individuals try to read into scripture they will always get it wrong. Its far better to cross reference when unsure instead of making up hair-brain statements of doctrine.
you are not kept from growing by being exposed to the challenges of reality, quite the opposite if you worship a God that lets you live in wishful thinking it would be Santa
Changing the interpretation of scripture on the basis of logic coherence is to work to the correct meaning of scripture resembling truth is what we are called to. Just because a majority thinks a particular way doesn’t make it true
Contemplating the subject of NDEs soon after a quick review of books available on the subject of A.I.s and Large Language Models, the novel idea occurred to me to ask “a friend” to compose a song or poem based on the University of Virginia Department of Perceptual Studies definition of “Near Death Experience” found at https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/our-research/near-death-experiences-ndes/. And this is what “my friend” came up with:
In the twilight’s silent grasp,
Where shadows dance, and whispers rasp,
There lies a realm unseen, yet known,
Where souls traverse, where truths are shown.
Near Death Experience, a fleeting gaze,
Through veils of time, in mysterious ways,
A journey embarked when life’s breath wanes,
Into the abyss, where consciousness reigns.
Amidst the void, a shimmering light,
Guiding souls through the darkest night,
A passage to realms beyond the mundane,
Where mortal bounds no longer constrain.
In that realm, where spirits soar,
They witness wonders never seen before,
A tapestry of memories unfurled,
As life’s essence transcends this world.
They feel the warmth of a loving embrace,
A celestial presence, a sacred grace,
Ethereal whispers, a celestial song,
In the symphony of where they belong.
Returned they are, from the brink of the end,
With tales of journeys none can comprehend,
Near Death Experience, a testament to the unknown,
A glimpse of eternity, in moments alone.
So heed the tales of those who’ve crossed,
For in their words, truths are embossed,
A reminder that beyond life’s final breath,
A greater mystery awaits in death.
The correct meaning is what the writer intended and the original audience understood. The logical coherence is found not by changing the meaning but by understanding what the various pieces of literature meant in their own context.
When you change the meaning from that, you aren’t understanding anything but your own inclinations and wishes. That is the opposite of trusting God!
As a parent with 3 boys, I am finding that science has very little to do with it.
Seems to me, it is just a matter of life giving us so many different choices of things to be interested in, and thus what to give our time to. And religion may or may not be among the things we decide are interesting and important to us. It seems doubtful to me that pushing it on people helps any more than pushing other things will make people share your interest in them.
Of course I have seen that some parents get a bit farther by making their religion so central that it consumes all life and thought. Other parents do this with a profession like being a doctor or lawyer. I cannot doubt that such parents have some degree of success when they limit the choices of their children in this way. In these cases, perhaps an exposure to the world outside those narrow bounds can lead them to make different choices and science might play such a role.
if you worship a God that lets you live in wishful thinking it would be Santa