Roman Crucifixion Methods

But that is exactly how you used it. Because Paul mentioned nailing to a cross you just assume he is referring to Jesus and is therefore confirming the fact that it happened.

Is not confirming that Jesus was nailed to the cross. That is not the subject of his discourse.
Referring t something that is known does not confirm the truth of it. It is a reference point, or an illustration and like a parable the actua content is not the point of the mention.

Read what is there! Do not add to it.

Richard

This is silly. Of course Paul is referring to Jesus. Take a stand instead of hiding behind hypotheticals.

Itā€™s one part of scripture among several which does clearly narrate Jesus was nailed to the Cross. If you want to reject that teaching of scripture, that is your business.

Vinnie

@Vinnie
You are not understanding, whether that is deliberate or not remains to be seen. Just because I saythat this passage does not mean what you claim does not mean I reject that there were nails used on Jesus.
I am criticising your view of a specific verse not the facts of Jesusā€™ crucifixion.

Richard

Take one step back and we hit the phenomenon by which the Hebrew ā€œthe landā€ ended up in English as ā€œthe worldā€: it went from Hebrew to Greek, then Greek to Latin and along the way morphed from meaning ā€œlandā€ as in ā€œthe land of Egyptā€ to meaning ā€œall the land that there is plus the seasā€. So by the time the Hebrew got rendered into English the understanding of the Hebrew word rested on a reflection of later languages into the Hebrew.
This points to a major principle in translation: never, ever choose the words in the target language on the basis of your own worldview! Doing so is the equivalent of a fallacy in logic. Yet itā€™s not an easy aspect to understand for many because (as studies have shown) most people arenā€™t even aware that they have a worldview, and those who do rarely bother to really analyze it and are thus unable to see how they are imposing their understanding of the world onto something written in another language.

That assumes that the translators are aware of the matter! The Greek word for ā€œhandā€ underwent the same process as the Hebrew for ā€œlandā€ as the change in language resulted in a different understanding. What makes them both tough is that it is first necessary to recognize that a word could even have a different definition; both ā€œlandā€ and ā€œhandā€ seem so simple and obvious that for centuries no one bothered to look (with the exception of an early medieval scholar from Byzantium who, on seeing a Roman Catholic crucifix commented that the artist had it wrong [I would love to have witnessed the interchange as they realized that Greek ā€œĻ‡ĪµĪÆĻā€ (khair) and Latin ā€œmanusā€ do not match up perfectly]).

This can play havoc with understanding important doctrines. My favorite example is the word ā€œį¼€Ī½Ī¬ĻƒĻ„Ī±ĻƒĪ¹Ļ‚ā€ (ah-NAH-stah-sis), ā€œresurrectionā€: it indicates that something that had fallen has stood up again ā€“ not replaced, not turned into something else, though possibly transformed. Indeed until Philo and Josephus į¼€Ī½Ī¬ĻƒĻ„Ī±ĻƒĪ¹Ļ‚ was primarily referenced as an impossibility, i.e. that dead bodies donā€™t just stand up again; Philo and Josephus both spiritualized the concept while in the New Testment usage it retains the sense of something physical having fallen/died and having stood up again.

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Why else would Jesus have nail holes in hands (wrists) and feet?

Yes. Fiction often reveals a great deal about a culture because it assumes and casually mentions common knowledge.

Iā€™ve totally lost track of the passage being discussed.

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The article mentions research done by Joseph Zias and Eliezer Sekeles. I found a critique of their interpretation here:

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Speaking about Dr. Hengel, the critique I mentioned above says this about him:

Some would argue that only ropes were employed in crucifixion. Others, like Hengel, state that nails were almost always used, and ropes were the exception ā€”the majority of scholars fall somewhere in between. While each party presents its own arguments, no definitive conclusions have so far been reached.

A careful analysis of the written sources adds much to our knowledge of this subject. After reviewing the literature dealing with nailing and tying, a brief historical overview of crucifixion will be presented, along with certain limitations inherent in this study. Earlier misunderstandings will then be identified after which a detailed analysis of nails and ropes will be attempted; for the literature, historical context, and archeological evidence combine to suggest that nailing was a prevalent practice utilized by the Romans in the first century a.d.

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  • Those of us who are ā€œShroudā€-fans are indubitably in the ā€œnailed hands, nailed feet, and pierced sideā€ crowd.
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@NickolaosPappas I was reading something not long ago (I have tried to remember but canā€™t) that described some of the torture methods. There is no end to the creativity of human sadism and brutality. We are used to looking at images of a resigned Christ who seems beyond agony, but that wouldnā€™t have been the image in the apostles and discipes minds who had seen crucifixions. There was no need to exagerate.

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I thought Iā€™d take the liberty to add a few things here. If youā€™re reading this thread with any interest, then perhaps some of what follows will likewise be of interest to you. Of course, also feel free to stop reading & move on at any time. Iā€™ll make a couple references to the article referenced in the OP, but most of this will be my own additions.

First off, some of you guys know this from a couple posts Iā€™ve made here in the past ā€” Iā€™m an anesthesiologist. So as for all physicians, what that means is that one becomes something of an expert in a few particular things. I canā€™t say that I know too much about most chemotherapeutic drugs, and Iā€™m likewise not the best person to look at that rash you have & tell you what it is. But what I know a great deal about is cardiac & respiratory physiology, and the mechanisms via which pain is perceived & processed in the human nervous system. Those two things alone constitute a big part of what I do every day.

Iā€™ve done a talk two or three times on the crucifixion & physical death of Jesus. As part of my own research, I read a bit in one or two of the books discussed above. Thereā€™s also an old JAMA article from 1986 that was interesting ā€” the lead author is a William G. Edwards, MD, if you want to search for it.

Crucifixion is essentially a variation on the older practice of impaling, whereby the body of the condemned was placed on an upright pole. The impaling could have been the principal cause of death, or the condemned may have been killed by some other means & his body impaled on the pole for display purposes. Impaling was known & practiced throughout the ancient near east, and is referenced in the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi, circa 18th century BC. Thereā€™s also a mention of the practice in Genesis 40, in the story of Joseph & the pharaohā€™s baker.

The methods of capital punishment described in the Mosaic law are stoning & burning, though there is a reference in Deuteronomy 21 to hanging the corpse on a pole or tree, and not allowing the body to remain there overnightā€¦a Torah command that also factors into the death of Jesus (and presumably other Jews who were crucified by the Romans).

As someone referenced above there is apparently a historical hypothesis that the Romans picked up the practice of crucifixion from the Carthaginians ā€” the two powers fought three wars for control of the Mediterranean world, so itā€™s very likely they knew plenty about each other. And when Rome subjugated the former kingdoms of Israel & Judah in the 1st century BC the practice of Roman crucifixion moved there as well. I often think of the Romans as a highly methodical bunch ā€” kind of the IBM of the ancient world. My old man was a career IBMā€™er, so trust meā€¦I know the type. Thus, the Romans likely didnā€™t invent crucifixion, but they sure perfected itā€¦and turned it into probably the most painful method of execution ever conceived by man, at least as applied on an institutional scale.

When our recovery room nurses are caring for a patient after surgery, one of the questions they will ask is for a ā€œpain scoreā€ ā€” a simple numerical rating of how much pain the patient is having, ranging from 0 to 10. Itā€™s subjective, of course, but thatā€™s how pain is assessed. ā€œZeroā€ is obviously no pain at all, and the word usually tethered to a pain score of ā€œtenā€ is ā€œexcruciatingā€ ā€” literally derived from Latin as ā€œout of the cross.ā€ Thus the word we often apply to the worst pain we can feel is taken from the pain of the Roman practice of crucifixion.

You guys above were discussing the specifics of the process of nailing the hands & feet. The article referenced in the OP makes note that one could just tie the hands & arms of the condemned man to the crosspiece ā€” as Iā€™ll explain momentarily, that likely makes little difference vs. nailing them. I would assume all of us here who are Christians hold that Jesusā€™ hands were nailed to his own cross, since thatā€™s what is stated in a few separate biblical passages. But just because somebody digs up a skeleton of a man who was crucified in Judaea in the 1st century, and thereā€™s no evidence that that manā€™s hands were nailed, realize it doesnā€™t really apply to Jesusā€™ death.

Iā€™m no Greek scholar, of course, but my own understanding when researching this was that the Greek word used for ā€œhandā€ in those biblical passages also connotes the wrist, and perhaps even the distal forearm. Iā€™m not gonna bet my 401(k) on it, mind you, but Iā€™ve understood that in the past to be the case. The two likely locations where one would nail the hands/wrists to the crosspiece of the cross would not be right through the center of the palm, but (a) closer to the wrist, just beside the fleshier base of the thumb, or (b) just below the wrist (as @jpm mentioned), between the distal ends of the radius & ulna bones of the forearm. In the case of (a), the nail would go through a tough connective tissue layer called the flexor retinaculum, and then through the carpal bones. That would hold fairly strong, but I think the more likely scenario would be (b) aboveā€¦thatā€™s how Iā€™d do it if I were in charge of crucifying someone. Not to be graphic, but itā€™d be extremely difficult for anyone to pull through the nail in that location.

Again, one could just bind the hands & arms of the condemned man to the crosspiece, and it wouldnā€™t affect the process very much. But much more important would be securing the feet, and I have to think this was almost always done with a nail, or two. The OP article describes the possibility that the feet of the condemned were placed on either side of the upright of the cross ā€” ie, with the insides of both ankles against the wood ā€” and one very long nail driven through one ankle, through the upright, out the other side of the wood and through the other ankle. In my mind this could work as long as the nail is anywhere below the end of the tibia bone of the leg. What my own research uncovered was likely a slanted footrest called a ā€œsedileā€ incorporated into the upright. In this case, the condemnedā€™s feet are placed with one plantar surface over the top of the other, and one long nail driven through both feet ā€” likely between the 2nd & 3rd metatarsal bones of each foot ā€” and into the wood of the sedile. Most artistic representations of Jesusā€™ crucifixion with which Iā€™m familiar seem to favor something more like this latter approach.

Crucifixion itself was likely not as bloody a procedure as one might think. The nail through the wrists would usually go in between the radial & ulnar arteries (the former is that pulse you can feel below the base of your thumb; the latter is on the pinky finger side of your wrist ā€” itā€™s deeper down & harder to feel). The exception could be the nail through the top surfaces of both feet. You should be able to feel a pulse on the top surface of your own foot ā€” thatā€™s the dorsalis pedis artery, and a nail driven through it would obviously cause some bleeding.

The nail through the wrists ā€” in either of the locations I mentioned ā€” would likely be extremely painful, though. It would likely go through the median nerve in either location; thatā€™s the nerve thatā€™s impinged in carpal tunnel syndrome. Driving a nail through it would be incredibly painful, radiating all the way up the arm. Again, nailing the hands & wrists to the crosspiece isnā€™t really necessary per se, and my own hypothesis is that one reason the Romans would have done this to some crucifixion victims is just for the pure sadism of it.

Ultimately, one dies from crucifixion due to asphyxiation. Under normal conditions, inhalation is an active process, ie, it requires muscle activityā€¦primarily contraction of the diaphragm muscle, which separates the thoracic & abdominal cavities. To a lesser extent, contraction of the intercostal muscles between the ribs also contributes. The net effect is an expansion of the thoracic cage, and the creation of a subatmospheric pressure within that cage. Air rushes into the lungs ā€œdownā€ that pressure gradient.

Under conditions of greater need, the muscles connecting the skull & cervical spine to the clavicle & shoulder girdle also contribute. This pulls the clavicle up, expanding the thoracic cage this way. The reason you lean over & put your hands above your knees to catch your breath after exerting yourself is because bracing your hands like that & locking your elbows confers a mechanical advantage to those neck & sternocleidomastoid muscles. @Randy & @jpm know that if you see a patient with an acute asthma attack & you can see the muscles in his neck contracting with each breath, you do not leave that patient aloneā€¦heā€™s in trouble, and heā€™s at risk of tiring out soon.

By contrast, exhalation is usually a passive process ā€” after actively contracting those muscles to inhale, you just ā€œlet go.ā€ The diaphragm & other muscles relax, the thoracic cage recoils down to its resting volume, and air flows out of the lungs to the outside. The exception to this is when one is doing something like blowing out a candle or singing ā€” here, thereā€™s a degree of active muscle activity during exhalation. Usually, exhalation takes twice as long as inhalation ā€” ie, 1.5 to 2 seconds to inhale & 3 to 4 seconds to exhale each breath. And nowā€¦youā€™re all thinking about your breathing. :sunglasses:

Crucifixion inverts this natural mode of breathing. Recall that in many artistic representations of Jesusā€™ crucifixion his arms are extended out from his body with an angle between his torso & humerus bones that exceeds 90 degrees. This mechanically enlarges the thoracic cage and thus creates a state of fixed inhalation. And again, one could accomplish this by binding the hands & arms to the crosspiece just about as well as nailing them. To exhale, then, the condemned man must push his body skyward to reduce that shoulder joint angle to less than 90 degrees in order to facilitate air exiting his lungs. His breathing mechanics are thus inverted, and every exhaled breath requires the very painful act of pushing up on the nail(s) driven through his feet.

Johnā€™s account tells us that the Roman soldiers at Jesusā€™ crucifixion broke the legs of the two thieves crucified with him in order to hasten their deaths, and that they contemplated doing so to Jesus, but did not when they realized he was already dead. Breaking the tibia bones of the condemned makes it almost impossible for him to push up on the nail in his feet, and thereby contributes to his asphyxiation & a hastier demise.

Yikesā€¦that kinda kept going, didnā€™t it? Sorry to monopolize half the bandwidth of the message board server, guys. I hope some of you found something interesting here, though.

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Thanks for the summary and review! Having just had a robotic prostatectomy, I am a big fan of anesthesiologists. Mine was great, and that cold rush of propofol when lying on the table was welcome.
One of our local internists gave a similar talk at our menā€™s Bible study, using a lot of the info from the JAMA article.

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And you could also argue the reverse: that it would have made sense for the authors to make the story less dramatic and brutal. Because as Paul said, the cross was a stumbling-block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles (1 Corinthians 1:23).

That just shows we always need to be very careful when thinking about the authorsā€™ motives.

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Really interesting really!!Thank you!

From what I read (and I cannot remember where) the arms were draped over the crossbeam, and the hands nailed with the palm facing inward against the wood.

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There were many ways to crucify people ā€“ just like even today there are many ways to execute people by hanging. Different methods were used in different circumstances by different executioners. Tradition says that Peter asked to be crucified head down, so as not to be crucified in the same way as his Lord.

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Welcome to our community Daniel!

Good point. And even in the case of crucifixion, the Romans considered the sensibilities of the locals. Such as making sure the criminals besides Jesus were dead and buried before sabbath. Normally they would let them suffer for days.

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I thought I knew what a 10 was from breaking my collarbone in high school wrestling ā€“ then one day I stepped on the bottom of a broken beer bottle which drove a glass spear through the sole of my shoe, through the sock, through my foot and out the top.

Kidney stones are about at that level, too.

Definitely! From my reading, they were more, well, ā€œthoroughā€ the worse the crime. A brigand might just be tied on, but for sedition they went all out.

On that theme, a biology prof I knew once remarked that he thought the wham-wham-wham portrayed in movies for driving in the nails was wrong: he would have gotten the nail started, then waited a minute or two until the victim had grown accustomed to that pain and given it another whack. He said that each new whack on the nail would be almost like starting over since Roman nails werenā€™t polished but left rough.

Yes ā€“ that saves wear and tear on the upright, which was a consideration since they were re-used many times.

Yes, but the greater the crime, the greater the pain. It wasnā€™t just punishment, it was an object lesson: this is what Rome can do to you if you defy Caesar! From scourge to nails, it was a pageant of blood and pain and humiliation. Iā€™m reminded of a novel, an alternate history of Rome where Rome lasted until the nineteenth century, where a visitor from Terra Occidental watching a crucifixion observed, ā€œThey treat men like animalsā€, and an ambassador from Ethiopa responded, ā€œNot in the least, sir ā€“ no Roman would treat an animal so!ā€

Is this why the sprinters on the track team had well-muscled necks? and the times when I almost blacked out at the end of a cross-country race my neck ached as much as my legs?

LOL
I was doing a breathing exercise without realizing it till I read this!

I tense my lower legs involuntarily when I read about that. During my track and cross-country career I broke both tibias from running ā€“ transverse stress fractures (the x-rays showed my bones looking like stacks of LEGO bricks, cracks all over). I have rough bones on both tibias from the bones trying to repair itself but getting cracked repeatedly.

That was worth more than half the bandwidth!

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And when the crucifixion team had the latitude, they sometimes gambled to decide which way to nail up the prisoner.

Then there was the version where a person was nailed to a wagon wheel that could be rotated ā€“ Iā€™ve never been sure if that was really a thing or not.

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Sprinters in the hundred are said to breathe maybe 3 -10 times during the race, with many being shallow short breaths. Carl Lewis was quoted as saying he would never race a distance where he had to breathe. Long distance runner, a different story. and you can always tell the bikers with huge thighs, good chests and little arms, comparatively.

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Except dogs :grimacing: