[quote=“jammycakes, post:31, topic:36238”]
where in Genesis 1 does it talk about cloud? You’re saying it’s “implied,” but that just proves my point — you’re adding a whole lot of interpretation on top of Genesis 1.[/quote]
Not so, and I stated how already: the term ‘darkness’, when applied to a physical terrestrial condition, implies dense cloud. This is uncontroversial. See, for example, Luke 23:44, Exodus 14:20, Deuteronomy 4:11, Joshua 24:7, 2Samuel 22:12, Job 3:5, Job 17:12, Job 22:11, Job 38:9, Psalm 18:11.
I thought I listed those verses already! Didn’t I?
Anyway, the point is, according to the Bible, ANE language/thought is far more terrestrially-life oriented than is English. At least this is what the Bible implies for ancient Hebrew.
That’s what I’m trying to get to, but you all keep messing up my arrows (of logic) after I’ve released them! Here’s an anaIogy of my view: A car is for getting from point A to point B, but it’s also for containing persons during the trip. And its also for keeping them comfortable. Is a car for only one of these three? No. So while I do not disagree that Genesis 1 is about human beings, my aim here has always been to use real material things for more rounded purposes. I just keep failing to put that upfront, since I find it so obvious as not to need mentioning upfront. But I see, now, that you’ve mistaken my intent by my having not set that out to begin with.
But I’ve just been trying to establish the validity of the car, so to speak. And you all have been, as it were, denying cars. The analogy holds, in my view, and I just hope that you see the analogy that I am making here. We are real human beings, in a real physical and terrestrial world, not omni-located disembodied minds. Jesus fed ‘The Five Thousand’ not merely as a means to an end, but literally partly because they were bodies that needed food.
In order to answer those last two questions, we need to know what it is that we lost, and what it is that God gave us ‘in the beginning’. Part of that is the actual car, so to speak. And my entire purpose in this whole thread is to get to the point where I can establish in others’ minds the profundity of the relationship between all three of
(a) the metaphorical car,
(b) the relationship between humans
© the relationship between God and humans.
I am here trying to set the stage for how Genesis 1 does that. I am trying to establish, for anyone who cares (but especially for my in-certain-crucial-ways thick-headed YEC fellows), just how all-around profound, how all-around relevant and meaningful, is Genesis 1.
Let me try to summarize one angle on all this:
**Seven Hebrew words. That’s v. 1. The entire account is comprised of seven stages, and each stage predicts the final seventh (and what’s the seventh word in v. 1?.
Genesis 2 is the elaboration on the implied seventh stage of Genesis 1. The first six stages are**
- The General universe and his Special Earth,
- The Earth and her special liquid water in abundance,
- The Water and is special cycle,
- The water cycle and its life,
- Life and its special, animal life,
- Animal life and its special, human life,
I shall presume that you can see, from this, as to what is the seventh.
Now, with that, it becomes clear that the account’s implicit model of how the physical cosmos basically coheres is a model that the literal Adam would have seen as promising not only THAT he was to have a mate, but the source matter FROM WHICH she was to be made.
Status quo YEC defender Henry Morris Sr., in his considering that the second account spells out only THAT Adam knew that she had been made from part of himself (Genesis 2:23), reasons that the pair of accounts MUST BE IMPLYING that God spelled this out for Adam:
[In Genesis 2:22,] Adam(…) describe[s] how God formed his own body and, later, that of Eve. (This particular information, of course, must have been imparted to Adam by God in later discourse with Adam.)
(Morris, H. M. 2000. Biblical Creationism: What Each Book of the Bible Teaches about Creation and the Flood. http://intelmin.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/BiblicalCreationismLO727.pdf page 22)
Morris also deduces, or else misreads, Genesis 2 as saying that God outright ‘commanded’ Adam to name the animals (Morris, pg. 20, bottom).
Yet Morris (pg. 20-21) states that Adam
had come directly from the Creator’s hand and was “in his image” — thus surely capable of accurate, rapid analytical reasoning and precise verbal and written communication. Therefore, we can regard this “book of Adam” as being a precisely accurate account of the events it describes.
So it seems that Morris is reducing this made-in-God’s image Adam to the level of a robot who is given no opportunity for any greater expression of that image than to carry out commands, and these commands all delivered in the most explicit, School Marm manner, or worse: "Adam, I command you, obey me! (with booming voice).
In fact, this reduction is well reflected in how Morris reasons upon Genesis 1:1:
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1:1).
This simple declarative statement can only have come by divine revelation. Its scope is comprehensively universal, embracing all space (heaven), all time (beginning), and all matter (earth) in our space/time/matter cosmos. It is the first and only statement of real creation in all the cosmogonies of all the nations of past or present. All other creation myths begin with the universe already in existence, in watery chaos, or in some other primordial form. Evidently man, [what about unfallen man?] with unaided reason, cannot conceive of true creation; he must begin with something. But Genesis 1:1 speaks of creation ex nihilo; only God could originate such a concept, and only an infinite, omnipotent God could create the universe.
This revelation was given initially by God Himself to the very first man and woman and has been transmitted down through the ages to all their children. God either wrote it down with His own finger on a table of stone, as He later did the tablets of the law (Exod. 31:18), or else He revealed it verbally to Adam, who recorded it.
Here Morris deduces that the account implies that God designed humans deficient in terms of conceiving of creation ex nihilo. But that would mean that, despite what the Scripture says, humans have no normal, God-given capacity to recognize even that a Creator must exist!