Richard Carrier addressed in peer-review for the first time

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/10035

I personally know a few professors who themselves also feel this way: they do not touch this topic with a ten foot pole, precisely because they fear the kind of thing Ehrman is doing and threatening. They do not want to lose their jobs or career prospects and opportunities. They do not want to be ridiculed or marginalized.

To answer your question about listening to historicists vs mythicists, I’ll answer another way…
http://www.religionfacts.com/charts/historical-jesus

Which historicist is correct?

“I think there is an issue of money today. There are clergy members, who cannot find comparable jobs outside religious institutions and so they will remain closeted in their true opinions. It’s the same with mythicists. Any secular Christian professor who admits to hold a mythical Jesus view will likely lose their job. Historicism just pays better and will, therefore, skew the publicly voiced opinion.”

This is another excuse. Do you seriously think only faith based institutions deal with the historicity of Jesus? There is not one single secular college or university in the world that will end your employment with them if you conclude Jesus didn’'t existed. Once upon a time in our lifetimes, this did in fact happen – G.A. Wells was a professor of German at the University of London (he died this year). He was, in our lifetimes, the only person in the world to hold a position at a college or university somewhat related to history and think Jesus didn’t exist. And he was … never fired. Obviously, you might think to yourself “how on God’s green Earth did a real academic conclude Jesus didn’t exist?” It’s a good question with an obvious solution. After many years, G.A. Wells eventually admitted mythicism doesn’t work after reading one of J.D.G. Dunn’s books. Wells was never fired, nor was his employment ever at risk when he was a mythicist. This clearly shows that this is simply mythicist hysteria and perhaps, another exercise in their genuine lack of understanding at how scholars don’t take them seriously.

“But lets be frank. Bart Erhman does not believe a miracle working Jesus existed and would concede that stories about Jesus, that portray him in a miracle working light, were embellished at best and made up completely at worst.”

I think I simply need to re-quote Ehrman since you’re still trying to twist his position into something that could somehow resemble yours.

“I think the evidence is just so overwhelming that Jesus existed, that it’s silly to talk about him not existing.” -Bart Ehrman

Again, have you read Ehrman’s book Did Jesus Exist? Ehrman thinks there is a LOT of things you can say about the historical Jesus. E.P. Sanders lists the points about Jesus that are shared among all historians, the bedrock of the Jesus tradition, and it’s quite a long one:

“I shall first offer a list of statements about Jesus that meet two standards: they are almost beyond dispute; and they belong to the framework of his life, and especially of his public career… Jesus was born c 4 BCE near the time of the death of Herod the Great; he spent his childhood and early adult years in Nazareth, a Galilean village; he was baptised by John the Baptist; he called disciples; he taught in the towns, villages and countryside of Galilee (apparently not the cities); he preached ‘the kingdom of God’; about the year 30 he went to Jerusalem for Passover; he created a disturbance in the Temple area; he had a final meal with the disciples; he was arrested and interrogated by Jewish authorities, specifically the high priest; he was executed on the orders of the Roman prefect, Pontius Pilate.” (quoted in John Dickson, Life of Jesus: Who He Is and Why He Matters pg. 41)

So really mythicists are just so disattached from secular scholarship that the two aren’t even compatible on the smallest issues. The question “which historicist is correct?” is obviously bait, but at the very least we can point towards the common Jesus bedrock that E.P. Sanders has listed in which all ‘historicists’ agree on, which is most definitely correct. Anything that isn’t bedrock is still in the realm of the debate, and the realm of debate is where historians are disagreeing and debating at this point, and where their views begin to diverge. Mythicist theories don’t vary much precisely because historians have already cut mythicist down to its last legs, and once that goes, so too does the entire mythicist speculation.

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You are making my point. The ONLY real question is by HOW MUCH were the accounts of the historical Jesus embellished.

If someone embellishes my biography to a degree that I, a couch potato, became a superman, are they embellishing my biography or creating a myth?

Sorry, I wanted evidence for your two statements, not Carrier’s unsubstantiated claims about unidentified people who may or may not have claimed to be afraid of losing “their jobs or career prospects and opportunities”. So to put it bluntly, you cannot point to a single example of this ever happening.

None of these people are secular professional historians. But it doesn’t matter anyway. Even if they were, secular professional historians disagree about the interpretation of historical figures all the time. Professional historians can’t even agree on the path Hannibal took across the Alps (since the two main historical sources both contradict each other hopelessly, and even contract themselves), and nor can they agree on the facts of Hannibal’s early life, character, and motivation. So what? Why don’t you want to answer my question?

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No, I don’t have any examples of it actually happening, but I know that mythicists are shunned like a plague. You probably know this as well. Therefore, any professor considering mythicism to be a viable theory would have plenty of reasons to distance themselves from mythicism and very few reasons to be vocal about their convictions.

It may not matter to you, but it may matter to someone else.

You can do whatever you want to do and listen to whomever you want to! You live in a free country ( I assume). There are Young Earth Creationists who will not accept or agree to anything a biologos.org fellow or an evolutionist will say. Ultimately, whatever you listen to or accept is your call. Not mine. I concur with mythicists today, but I cannot give you a reason to concur with them if you don’t want to. I just think mythicists make more sense.

Peter’s confession, claiming the people thought living Jesus (before his crucifixion) was resurrected John the Baptist is almost certainly a made up story. I doubt this is what people of that time thought and historicists don’t even touch this story with a ten foot pole. But this story makes perfect sense to a mythicist.

You did not answer my previous comment. I will re-post it for you.

“I think there is an issue of money today. There are clergy members, who cannot find comparable jobs outside religious institutions and so they will remain closeted in their true opinions. It’s the same with mythicists. Any secular Christian professor who admits to hold a mythical Jesus view will likely lose their job. Historicism just pays better and will, therefore, skew the publicly voiced opinion.”

This is another excuse. Do you seriously think only faith based institutions deal with the historicity of Jesus? There is not one single secular college or university in the world that will end your employment with them if you conclude Jesus didn’'t existed. Once upon a time in our lifetimes, this did in fact happen – G.A. Wells was a professor of German at the University of London (he died this year). He was, in our lifetimes, the only person in the world to hold a position at a college or university somewhat related to history and think Jesus didn’t exist. And he was … never fired. Obviously, you might think to yourself “how on God’s green Earth did a real academic conclude Jesus didn’t exist?” It’s a good question with an obvious solution. After many years, G.A. Wells eventually admitted mythicism doesn’t work after reading one of J.D.G. Dunn’s books. Wells was never fired, nor was his employment ever at risk when he was a mythicist. This clearly shows that this is simply mythicist hysteria and perhaps, another exercise in their genuine lack of understanding at how scholars don’t take them seriously.

“But lets be frank. Bart Erhman does not believe a miracle working Jesus existed and would concede that stories about Jesus, that portray him in a miracle working light, were embellished at best and made up completely at worst.”

I think I simply need to re-quote Ehrman since you’re still trying to twist his position into something that could somehow resemble yours.

“I think the evidence is just so overwhelming that Jesus existed, that it’s silly to talk about him not existing.” -Bart Ehrman

Again, have you read Ehrman’s book Did Jesus Exist? Ehrman thinks there is a LOT of things you can say about the historical Jesus. E.P. Sanders lists the points about Jesus that are shared among all historians, the bedrock of the Jesus tradition, and it’s quite a long one:

“I shall first offer a list of statements about Jesus that meet two standards: they are almost beyond dispute; and they belong to the framework of his life, and especially of his public career… Jesus was born c 4 BCE near the time of the death of Herod the Great; he spent his childhood and early adult years in Nazareth, a Galilean village; he was baptised by John the Baptist; he called disciples; he taught in the towns, villages and countryside of Galilee (apparently not the cities); he preached ‘the kingdom of God’; about the year 30 he went to Jerusalem for Passover; he created a disturbance in the Temple area; he had a final meal with the disciples; he was arrested and interrogated by Jewish authorities, specifically the high priest; he was executed on the orders of the Roman prefect, Pontius Pilate.” (quoted in John Dickson, Life of Jesus: Who He Is and Why He Matters pg. 41)

In the last 25 minutes of this lecture by Dale Martin at Yale University (a highly skeptical scholar), Martin explains many of the things we can know about the historical Jesus and why we know they’re true.

The question “which historicist is correct?” is obviously bait, but at the very least we can point towards the common Jesus bedrock that E.P. Sanders has listed in which all ‘historicists’ agree on, which is most definitely correct. Anything that isn’t bedrock is still in the realm of the debate, and the realm of debate is where historians are disagreeing and debating at this point, and where their views begin to diverge.

I think you misunderstood my point. I did not claim that Ehrman is a mythicist. I only said that historicists consider stories about Jesus to have been embellished. The only debate and question is how much of these stories were embellished. And in my view the line between myth making and great embellishment is very fine.

I already posted this but I’ll repeat for you. IF someone wrote that I, a couch potato, was a superman, and writes stories about me that are greatly embellished, at what point would we stop saying these stories were based on REAL person vs talking about a fictional character?

Is the story about King Arthur based on a real person or is it 100% myth? If it’s based on a real person (and greatly embellished) the difference between myth is very minor. I think the scholarship is splitting hairs with mythicists. At the end of the day, Ehrman and Carrier would probably agree with each other 95%+ of the time (made up figure, I admit). They are both atheists and don’t believe Jesus did any miracles as alleged by the Gospelers and they don’t believe Jesus rose from the dead or was born of a virgin, etc…

Strangely, I became a mythicist after reading historical-jesus.info website (non believer’s, historical Jesus investigation)

Comment:
That does not make any sense: how could the parents hide it?
By arranging for a fake burial and keeping secret the aliveness of their child, for the rest of their days?
An absurd & unrealistic proposition and Jesus could not have said that. This can only indicate that nobody had been telling about any revival/resurrection (because it did not happen!). More so considering that, later in Mk9:10, the disciples are “questioning what the rising from the dead meant.” (which they would not if they had witnessed Jairus’ daughter alive again!).
The same artifice is used in:
Mk1:34b “… he would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was.”
Mk3:11-12 “Whenever the evil spirits saw him, they fell down [the spirits have a body!] before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.” But
[a bit late! Obviously “Mark” wanted these demons to express themselves! See also Mk1:24b-25a]
` he gave them strict orders not to tell who he was.
[if those evil spirits were not under a gag order, everyone would know from them who is Jesus! In GMark, Jesus is not called “Son of God” by his disciples or the people (but the “silenced” demons did!)]”
In different parts of his gospel, “Mark” used this same stratagem:
The reason why some extraordinary events or exalted acknowledgments (of utmost theological significance) were never heard from eyewitness(es) is explained by Jesus’ alleged commands for silence.

Now, look at Peter’s confession passage in Mark’s Gospel (probably the earliest of Canonical Gospels)

NASB Mark 8: 27 Jesus went out, along with His disciples, to the villages of Caesarea Philippi; and on the way He questioned His disciples, saying to them, “Who do people say that I am?” 28 They told Him, saying, “John the Baptist; and others say Elijah; but others, one of the prophets.” 29 And He continued by questioning them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter *answered and *said to Him, “You are the Christ.” 30 And He warned them to tell no one about Him.

So, people think Jesus is John the Baptist raised from the dead (As Mark 6:14 also claims) and Jesus tells the disciples, those in the know, to NOT tell anyone about him. Perhaps to explain why NOONE heard about him? Makes sense to me.

No one is disputing that historians consider this or that story untrue. You also seem to misunderstand embellishment. If the Gospels were 100% embellished, then Jesus must have existed, otherwise there wouldn’t have been anything to embellish. You have to start somewhere, and mythicists have yet to explain what that start of Christianity was.

“At the end of the day, Ehrman and Carrier would probably agree with each other 95%+ of the time (made up figure, I admit).”

More like 5% of the time. Ehrman thinks Carrier gets, quite literally, everything wrong besides supernatural talk in the Gospels. Again, have you read Ehrman’s book Did Jesus Exist? You speak a lot about Ehrman’s views but sound like you know very little about them. Watching two or three debates Ehrman has with Christians isn’t enough. Read his book on mythicism, or even to begin with, watch his debate with Robert Price (it’s a whopping though). Or even read his two responses to Richard Carrier (neither of which Carrier has tried to address):

So, people think Jesus is John the Baptist raised from the dead (As Mark 6:14 also claims) and Jesus tells the disciples, those in the know, to NOT tell anyone about him. Perhaps to explain why NOONE heard about him? Makes sense to me.

Huh? Your point makes little sense, I don’t know whether or not you understand the passage you quoted. Jesus asks Peter who he thinks Jesus is. Peter says “well some say you’re elijah, some say you’re john, some say you’re a great prophet”. Jesus then replies, “but who do YOU think I am?” Peter replies “you’re the messiah”. Peter got it bang on! So, Jesus tells Peter not to tell anyone about it. Why? Because anyone who has studied the Gospel of Mark realizes that this is one big theme in Mark’s Gospel – the fact that no understands who Jesus is. This all culminates until Jesus engagement with the High Priest, where the High Priest recounts many accusations against Jesus, and asks Jesus response, but he doesn’t answer. So then, the High Priest outright asks Jesus: “Are you the Messiah, Son of the Blessed One?” And Jesus responds, for the first time revealing who He was, “I Am, and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” For Mark in his Gospel, this is where he “drops the bass”. So, what part about this narrative of Jesus in Mark do you find strange?

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Au contraire. A professor who goes rogue and claims that Jesus was really a time-traveling used-car salesman (or didn’t exist and only said 18% of the things he said) could write a book and make a crap load of money.

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No mythicist argues that there were no people named Jesus in the 1st century CE! Of course there were Jesus’s and very probably lots of them! Stories in the Gospels are probably just stories.

Or Mark is ALSO trying to explain why there is no trace of the ‘historical’ Jesus. No-one has heard of this miracle working, donkey riding, miracle working Messiah.

Luke’s Gospel has nonsensical info in the conext of Jesus’ question that leads to Peter’s confession.

Luke 9:18 And it happened that while He was praying alone (!), the disciples were with Him(Huh? how can Jesus be ALONE and praying and the disciples WITH him? What does ALONE mean then?), and He questioned them, saying, “Who do the people say that I am?” 19 They answered and said, “John the Baptist, and others say Elijah; but others, that one of the prophets of old has risen again.

Ask William Lane Craig, a Jesus historicist, about what would it take for a Judean orthodox Jew to believe in someone’s bodily resurrection and you will hear a claim that these Jews would never believe in the bodily resurrection unless it really truly happened! And yet, here in the Gospels, written by Christians, a claim is made that these Jews all believed Jesus, before he was killed, was a risen from the dead John the Baptist or one of the prophets of old. Someone is telling STORIES here.

You claim these stories were based on something the real Jesus (one of them, right?) must have said, where as I think they are too nonsensical to be based on real events. I mean, Matthew has Jesus riding to Jerusalem on two donkeys, that no-one used to ride on before. Matthew must have a good sense of humor.

It appears that like many seriously religious Jews of today, the messianic Jewish audiences at the time of Jesus were frequently supporters of the idea of reincarnation - - because believing in reincarnation didn’t interfere with waiting for the End of Days.

The question remains, however, were the pro-reincarnation Jews of the time influenced by Greek notions of reincarnation (most notoriously endorsed by Pythagoras), or by Persian notions of reincarnation (which were ultimately sourced in Hindu theological ideas)?

Huh? That is easily the most absurd reading of the Peter passage that I’ve ever read, and no doubt is a 21st century imported reading that you’re trying to shove in Mark’s mouth. We should simply read the text as it is, and understand it in the context of Mark’s Gospel. I encourage you to read Bart Ehrman’s The Lost Gospel of Judas Iscariot, pp. 18-20. I must admit, Ehrman gets it into its context there. I’m simply relaying what scholars already know, nothing I have said so far in this comment is new to anyone in the field.

The NRSV translation of Luke 9:18 runs “Once when Jesus was praying in private and his disciples were with him…” Clearly, this text implies Jesus was alone with his disciples, without any crowds around them as was usually the case of Jesus in his ministry. Right before Luke 9:18, Jesus was doing the whole feeding of the 5,000 thing. You’re comments appear to be making out the Gospels as too needlessly stupid and contradictory. To understand the real problems with the Gospels, once must have a much more sensible understanding of what they’re reading. In your most recent comment, again, you have given us no reason to doubt the historicity of Jesus. You are also silent about some other things that I’ve mentioned, including that G.A. Wells, professor of German at the University of London was at one point a mythicist (which he eventually threw away), and while he was a mythicist, never once had his employment at risk or even questioned. Secular institutions demonstrably do not censor anyone who denies the historicity of Jesus. At best, one could claim that Fuller Theological Seminary would fire a mythicist, but Harvard, Oxford, Munster, London, Michigan or any other secular university wouldn’t even have the thought enter their minds.

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Look, I’m saying that Mark (and Matthew and Luke) could just be creating stories, like the birth narrative stories created by Matthew and Luke as your Yale University youtube link says. They are creating stories to answer this or that question of their time or in their community. Jesus the risen John the Baptist could serve a different purpose, other than explaining why no-one heard of this miracle working Messiah Jesus other than Hellenized Jewish or Roman or Syrian Christians. I’m not married to the “Why”. Explanations I give work for me. If they don’t work for you, it makes no difference to me.

If you agree that the Gospels contain made up material, how do you tell the difference between fact and fiction in the Gospels?

Here is another hypothesis on the Gospels. They are just retold stories based on Old Testament stories. It’s just a hypothesis, but it makes sense to me

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_midrash1.htm

As far as persecutions of the mythicists, I’m just going off what I heard and read (I quoted Carrier’s article). I have no first hand knowledge on the issue, other than an observation that mythicists Richard Carrier and Robert Price are portrayed as cranks and fringe scholars, despite their credentials.

And also, look at the standard of historicity. Yale professor says that a sign on the cross that says… “This is Jesus of Nazareth, King of Jews” is historical because all Gospels says this was the sign (with slight variations). With such a standard for historicity, color me unimpressed. 28:20 mark. He says GJohn probably doesn’t use Mark, but admits that others disagree. Then there is the King of the Jews title that early Christians probably didn’t use. It doesn’t look like Christians would make it up, but by that token, Jesus the risen John the Baptist would probably not be made up by Christians, so it must be a historical claim that Jesus’ contemporaries thought he was the risen John. And yet, historicists don’t believe Jesus’ contemporaries thought Jesus was John the baptist risen from the dead! Jesus the risen John is no different from a myth, in my opinion.

The author, Daniel Gullotta, is a PhD student in Religious Studies at Stanford and an atheist (or at least was when at Yale Divinity School).

Which is why I think the debates between secular Jesus historicists and mythicists are moot. They both agree on most questions about Jesus. It’s a distinction without much difference in my opinion.

They could. It could be all true, it could be all false. But actual evidence is needed. At this point, our documentation for Jesus is much stronger than it is for basically any other figure of his period we know existed (Hillel, Akiva ben Yosef, etc) and so denying Jesus existence and not these other figures is basically an exercise in special pleading.

“Jesus the risen John the Baptist could serve a different purpose, other than explaining why no-one heard of this miracle working Messiah Jesus other than Hellenized Jewish or Roman or Syrian Christians.”

You appear to be still misunderstanding the Peter passage. Perhaps a little more context is needed. John the Baptist, who, although was not doing any miracles, had a great reputation among the Jews and would regularly preach to the masses. Herod the Great eventually had John executed. However, upon hearing rumors of Jesus, Herod, not knowing who this wondrous preacher was, confused Jesus with John and had thought John was alive even after he had knowingly executed him, and so had feared that John the Baptist was raised. In other words, the idea of the resurrected John the Baptist stems from the fact that after John’s death, Jesus (who might have been one of his disciples) continued to ministry and raised it to new fame. Of course, rumors quickly start spreading, and people thought John was still around because of what they heard about Jesus (they confused the two).

“If you agree that the Gospels contain made up material, how do you tell the difference between fact and fiction in the Gospels?”

The same way you distinguish between fact and fiction from our writings about the emperor Augustus, who had many historical and legendary things written about him. By the way, Robert Price is wrong when it comes to Jesus basically just being an exercise in midrash. He sometimes goes to ridiculous lengths to finding parallels of Jesus in the OT, sometimes claiming that you have to read stories backwards to find the parallel. It’s quite strange, really. Price appears to think that the Gospel authors were sitting at a desk with about 50 different OT scrolls on the table with a little pair of scissors cutting in a part from here, a part from there, until it all came together. Robert Price and Richard Carrier are, in my opinion, cranks. Price has never published anything, thinks all of Paul’s letters are forged, thinks that the Gospel authors used Zoroastrianism when making up the baptism story, etc. That’s crank to me. Carrier is more sane than Price, but his theories are all still irreparable and his publishing record is dismal. No one would get fired for being a mythicist.

The title ‘king of the jews’ is in all four Gospels, meaning we almost certainly have independent sources attesting to it. Secondly, it wasn’t a title used for Jesus by any actual Christians. This is not a Christian title, yet it’s right there in our sources. That’s a second key. “John the risen baptist” isn’t a title, and so your response doesn’t work. Thirdly, as Martin pointed out, this title was meant to mock Jesus with. Why would Christians invent it? Thus, we have a number of lines of reasoning that fit with a historical picture but need to be awkwardly shoved in with mythicism without any explanation. When Jesus was crucified, the Romans probably put up a sign that said something like “This is Jesus of Nazareth, the king of the Jews”.

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Ok so you now acknowledge your original claim has no evidential basis; what you claim happens, has never actually happened. Here’s a list of mythicists; Professor George Wells, Professor Robert Price, Professor Michael Martin, Professor Alvar Ellegård, Dr Jerry Coyne, Dr Richard Carrier, Dr Jay Raskin. None of them have suffered professionally as a result of their mythicist views, and all of them have been very vocal on the subject, in print and online. Carrier in particular has even had his mythicist claims published in peer reviewed literature. So we have direct evidence that your claim is simply false.

I notice you not only truncated what I wrote, but failed to address it. I presented evidence for why your claim is irrelevant. You haven’t dealt with this.

This does not answer the question. Why should we listen to mythicists over professional secular historians? Why should we listen to flat earth believers over scientists?

Oh, you mean this?

Luke 9 (New English Translation):
18 Once when Jesus was praying by himself, and his disciples were nearby, he asked them, “Who do the crowds say that I am?”

Luke 9 (Contemporary English Version):
18 When Jesus was alone praying, his disciples came to him, and he asked them, “What do people say about me?”

Luke 9 (International Standard Version):
18 One day while Jesus was praying privately and the disciples were with him, he asked them, “Who do the crowds say I am?”

The Greek word translated “with [him]” in some Bibles is σύνειμι. It is actually a verb. The Greek in the actual text is συνῆσαν [third person plural imperfect indicative active] αὐτῷ, translating naturally to “came to him”, or “were with him” (the verb can mean either). The Greek word translated “alone” in some Bibles is μόνος. It has a range of meanings, including “private(ly)”. The translation of the two words in the text depends on how the translators understood each word to be functioning.

The fact that you seriously raised this as some kind of significant issue in the text, goes to show how little investigation you have conducted into this topic.

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Lets forget the issue of Jesus being thought of as a risen John the Baptist.

Why? We don’t have to forget that at all. What’s your point?

In other words, literally hearsay.

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Hey Jonathan. Didn’t G.A. Wells renounce mythicism? I was also sad to find out today that G.A. Wells passed away this year. He may have been a loon when it comes to Jesus but never nice to hear of someones death.