I’m only asking you to state your sources. I can’t “refute you” as you put it unless you actually present them. It’s very easy to list sources. Requires less than a minute. If you can’t, I’ll just assume there aren’t any.
Vinnie
And Edited to add: Thinking you are mistaken is not calling you a liar. But if you fail to cite any evidence I will be forced to conclude whatever my brain seems appropriate.
The article you read is from academics. Read it again.
If you want a more deep in dive id recommend the books published on my thread
Although He is a New Testament Language professor and Theologian he has some sources there
Auhtor Richard Bauckham as well states that thhere is a thing called “Binitarianism”. Plus there is according to him
fairly unique combination of factors that show that Christians treated Jesus as being in the identity of the One God of Israel
If you could wait a few days to gather up my old drive with my research i could cite more academic links to this or pdf. Till tgen either search yourself up things or you can believe whatever you want about it. Till then
you have 2 people to search uo for yourself so thatll keep you busy
Im not suprised. I have been accused with much worse from you sadly.
@Vinnie
Also Larry Hurtado writes about binitarianism. A scholar.google.com search returns much that is freely available if you want to go down that rabbit hole.
Well boys, we did it again! Another fine mess you’ve got me into Ollie! Hmph!
I’m not concerned with the way some Christians viewed Christ back in the day. Plenty of us misconstrue him today. I can read. I can pray. I can listen to discussions of various points of view. I can know him. Anyone can.
I searched for him with every thing I had and still do. I take some things as true and accurate and historical. He died a horrible death. Mary loved him. He loved people. He is my friend. He’s a lot more, and I love the guy. He saved my life. Apparently, he who has been forgiven much, loves much. I can see that in me. I was not a nice guy. I’m a nice guy today and I’m thankful.
Whats exactly the purpose of this comment?
I wanted to express myself. I look at Him differently, I guess. I think everyone needs to be heard. I think we can lose sight of him by seeking knowledge about him over being one with him. I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me
Can’t we know and enjoy him without being scholars?
For me, obeying him is the crux of Christianity. I have struggled mightily and failed thousands of times to be and to do his will. Much of my life as a Christian has been consumed with dying to my will, my flesh, my ego. Sanctification has been a full time job and more. I had to take time off from my life to stop all activity; to pray, to seek him 24/7, and do nothing else except pray and read and go for walks, in order to break free of sins that were destroying me.
I know He’s real. I know He cares. I know He’s cool. I have been through the refiner’s fire and it was excruciating. Took many, many years.
I’m the demoniac sitting at his feet, clothed, cleaned, in my right mind, usually. I don’t need more information about him to live for him. I like learning more, for sure. I just don’t need to know what most scholars’ latest opinions are.
So you dont care about people who literally dedicate their lives to understand your so beloved God ? Are you a trinitarian?An arian?An gnopstic?Whatever you are ,i just want you to know that your belief was created by or have been studied by those people you do not care about.In the real world you have a name for that.Ignorant. And if you dont need you dont have to read our comments.Getting in here to express yourself (as if this is the first time ) and then telling me this ?
This isnt a new doctrine we are debating here,rather than something that it is believed a long time by many to see if it has any truth
I don’t understand what you mean. I don’t care about the opinions of most biblical scholars. That is true. I care about them. I think Mike L. Brown is the best NT scholar by far, a Messianic Jew, PhD., passionate believer, prolific author, radio show host, best debater I’ve seen. Bart wasn’t able to keep up with him. He towers over every scholar I’ve seen. He is a giant. He is in different league.
I believe you indicated you never experienced God working in your life. Why? What do you think is behind that?
Why? I dont know i suppose il ask him when ill meet him. Why do you think?
Be careful Ralphie, your on the edge, no, you’ve gone over the edge in your desire to KNOW JESUS.
You need to read more scholars before you can know Jesus:)
I would need to get to know your opinions and beliefs before I could say. I just noticed that you mentioned that as if you would like to know what it would be like.
For me, It’s unlike anything I’ve ever known except words like incredible, fantastic, remarkable, the most beautiful thing I’ve ever known, and stunning describe it somewhat.
Growing with him has been hellish many times. I think I understand why many turn away. It is extremely painful to become like He is and that is his goal for us once we know him, imo. Yet, I wouldn’t change a thing. It is all voluntary. I don’t have to cooperate with him. Many of us get to the point where it is just too difficult to keep on following him. We can say we turned away for a million reasons that don’t explain that we just couldn’t take it any longer. It is all out war after we dedicate everything to him.
I think it is helpful to do a study of portions of the gospels, verse by verse. You do, too, obviously.
It isn’t possible to end up with a book like the NT that was thrown together somehow, added to, subtracted from, copied and copied and copies made of copies on and on and wind up as the most influential piece of literature of all time, featuring an unknown, average man from the middle of nowhere 2,000 years ago, whose words and life revolutionized the world and still do, literally changing the hearts of mankind by his indwelling Spirit without Something/Someone behind the scenes making it happen. Plus, I know him. My relationship with him parallels Ehrman’s and hundreds of millions of others who have found in him and through him love for everyone, deep connections to the universe that are sweeping in their scope, peace, focus, on and on.
Many scholars I fear miss the boat. Scholars know tremendous amounts of information and I’m all for it. (I think many have succumbed to the temptation to look down on us who know little in comparison.) I think their god is knowledge and its pursuit. I believe much of what they theorize is a million generations removed from the simplicity that cries out on every page of the NT (not literally).
I’m not actually opposed to listening to “scholars” to a point. I just don’t want the following words of the Lord’s to end up being applied to me.
Matt 13:10
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
"‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;they hardly hear with their ears,and they have closed their eyes.Otherwise they might see with their eyes,hear with their ears,understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’
I also don’t want to become like those in Athens that Paul spoke to on Mars hill.
Acts 17:19-22
And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
I rely on the Spirit of God working within me.
John 16:12-15
"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
I do take the Word of God through the prophets, Jesus and the apostles to confirm those things that I understand to be from the Spirit.
One of the main reasons that Jesus died and rose again was so the Spirit of God would come and abide in God’s people. God’s word would be written in our hearts, our spirit, and we would know Him, because we would be born of Him.
2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
4 And turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? When I entered your house, you did not give Me water for My feet, but she wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You did not greet Me with a kiss, but she has not stopped kissing My feet since I arrived. 46 You did not anoint My head with oil, but she has anointed My feet with perfume. 47 Therefore I tell you, because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”
48 Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
49 But those at the table began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
They missed it again. The Big Shots who knew the laws of God like nobody’s business, didn’t give a rip about Jesus or this broken woman. How many scriptures did she know by heart? But, Jesus acknowledged her value above theirs. Why? Because she loved him and she showed it. She couldn’t help it. She couldn’t keep herself from crying because she loved him so. She kissed his feet over and over and washed them with her tears she had shed so many out of her deep love and gratitude. Jesus knows what’s up. He knew her background. He could feel and see her love. The experts in the background knew scripture and they knew He was God because He forgave her and they had no idea what to do with him.
Let’s say the NT has been redacted and edited quite a bit. We still have what God intended. Perhaps there were errors in the originals. Perhaps whatever “edits” and redactions that were made enhanced the scriptures’ accuracy.
Or, perhaps the original recordings are perfect. God says a lot about the word being incorruptible. I was told that the origiinal NT, which we don’t hsve, is perfect
Even so, few religions in the history of the human race have shown a greater penchant for conflict than the religion founded on the teachings of Jesus, who, true to his word, did indeed bring a sword. Some early Christians realized that the religion would be based on conflict. The author of the New Testament book of Eph-esians, allegedly Paul, tells his readers to “put on the full armor of God” (6:10-20). Dr. Ehrman
This instruction was given because Christians are always involved in warfare. Always. Very true. Not physical warfare. Spiritual warfare. For example, we are to put on the breastplate of righteousness. The helmut of salvation. The sword of the spirit.
He continues: IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, JESUS is reputed to have said, “I did not come to bring peace on earth, but a sword” (Matt. 10:34). Truer words were never spoken. Many Christians in the modern age think of their religion as peace loving, as well it often has been and should be. But anyone with any grasp of history at all knows also just how violent Christians have been over the ages, sponsoring oppression, injustice, wars, crusades, pogroms, inquisitions, holocausts—all in the name of the faith.
I don’t discount all bible scholars by any means. Some of them are better than others. I don’t take everything they say as gospel, either. When they write popular books instead of books for scholars, they must exercise caution. Their average reader may be too trusting.
“Christians” has come to mean many things. Bart knows the true definition because he became one. Christ burst into his life and he has never been the same, although he has turned his back on his first love. Being a Christian, a real Christian, is someone who discovers through a personal relationship with Christ, that Love is all important. Jesus became Bart’s role model for self-sacrificial love. In Jesus, he found kis best friend. If you don’t know by now, let me make it clear that not everyone who wears the “Christian” label is a Christian. Christ said to prominent “Christians”, I never knew you. It is a subtle yet very powerful assault on Christians and on Christ himself for one considered to be a world renown scholarly expert to link real Christians with those in name only.
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