Bill, that is why the whole scene was absolutely ridiculous. They didn’t kill him because they thought He was faking. They saw what He did. They saw miraculous healings repeatedly, Lazarus brought back from the dead. The little dead boy restored. The fish and bread. This guy was happening on a major scale and they knew He had to be God, but they couldn’t face it. If you kill God, there’s every reason to believe it won’t be for good. So, they were exasperated. They killed him hoping to bury their fears that He really was God.
No the signs and wonders indicated He was the promised Messiah, not God. As I understand it, the Messiah was not God. Even with the signs Jesus didn’t fit their idea of what the Messiah would bring so it was safe to kill Him to preserve the nation, John 11:50.
I know this is one of your personal beliefs but you might want to take a look at Books and Readers in the Earth Church, A History of Early Christian Texts by Harry Y. Gamble. He has a good discussion of literacy in the early church.
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“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
“Listen here Jesus. Nobody can do what you’ve been doing unless He was actually God. We got it. It’s obvious you are I AM. But, see, we got to stone you for the heck of it. See, you’re God and that scares us to death. Why, at the rate you’re going, we’ll be has-beens, kaput, no one will give a rip about us. Do you understand? So, even though you are unstoppable, and your words match your deeds, we have to destroy you so we can go back to the way things were. Thanks for understanding.”
Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’d? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?
If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me. 38 But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father.”
This is against historical data though.They had Jesus at the same status as the Father (ie meaning divine status). So either you are one of those who dont want to look at the historical data,or you have your own personal beliefs about Jesus and think the first Christians were wrong
Being God’s adoptive Son, or his representative on earth and being given authority by Him is not the same thing as ontologically being God. Is it possible you are simply reading later creedal Christianity into aspects of the NT where it shouldn’t be? This issue might not be as binary as it seems to you.
I am certainly very interested in seeing this historical data and your defense of what the first Christians (ca. 35 CE) believed about Jesus.
Vinnie
Weve discussed it on Were the early Christians "Trinitarians"?
If you want something further from there asked to be opened again
My link as well as 2 books posted there gives equivelent basis to my argument.Check them out if you can.Not sure about the books but my link should be free still . Its academic work so its worth the time
Mind you the question was asked by me whom be then was sure that the early christians didnt did that sort of thing
Your link says some early Christians were subordinationists.
“No theologian in the first three Christian centuries was a trinitarian in the sense of a believing that the one God is tripersonal, containing equally divine “persons”, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”
Jesus was not viewed as God in the ontological sense closer to what we mean as far as we know until the Gospel of John and whenever it’s traditions stem from.
One can even make a compelling argument (see the thread on John about framing vs history) that Jesus didn’t even think he was God looking at the synoptic Gospels.
Vin is
Either you are ignorant or didnt read the papaerwork Quote me from it. And if it did said that( i remember tge paperwork diving in some other aspects as well) it didnt said ONLY that. There are historical records that Christians worshiped Jesus the same as the Father. Period
Agreed what does that have to do with Jesus beign worshiped the same as the Father?
What percentage of scholars dedicated to historical biblical studies can confirm or assert this? Or whats the percentage of them holding these views?
Christians from 30-60CE? Aside from a few potential credal formulas/hymns in the genuine Pauling corpus, I’ll call your bluff in my ignorance. What are these sources?
Refute me or you have no authority to call me a liar. Since i imagine you cant,slander and foul language (as you have shown before responding to me) are not of intelectuall grounds. I wont respond to accusations or anything else. Only at facts and refutations
I’m only asking you to state your sources. I can’t “refute you” as you put it unless you actually present them. It’s very easy to list sources. Requires less than a minute. If you can’t, I’ll just assume there aren’t any.
Vinnie
And Edited to add: Thinking you are mistaken is not calling you a liar. But if you fail to cite any evidence I will be forced to conclude whatever my brain seems appropriate.
The article you read is from academics. Read it again.
If you want a more deep in dive id recommend the books published on my thread
How on Earth Did Jesus Become a God?: Historical Questions about Earliest Devotion to Jesus (thats the title)
Although He is a New Testament Language professor and Theologian he has some sources there
Auhtor Richard Bauckham as well states that thhere is a thing called “Binitarianism”. Plus there is according to him
fairly unique combination of factors that show that Christians treated Jesus as being in the identity of the One God of Israel
If you could wait a few days to gather up my old drive with my research i could cite more academic links to this or pdf. Till tgen either search yourself up things or you can believe whatever you want about it. Till then
you have 2 people to search uo for yourself so thatll keep you busy
Im not suprised. I have been accused with much worse from you sadly.
@Vinnie
Also Larry Hurtado writes about binitarianism. A scholar.google.com search returns much that is freely available if you want to go down that rabbit hole.
Well boys, we did it again! Another fine mess you’ve got me into Ollie! Hmph!
I’m not concerned with the way some Christians viewed Christ back in the day. Plenty of us misconstrue him today. I can read. I can pray. I can listen to discussions of various points of view. I can know him. Anyone can.
I searched for him with every thing I had and still do. I take some things as true and accurate and historical. He died a horrible death. Mary loved him. He loved people. He is my friend. He’s a lot more, and I love the guy. He saved my life. Apparently, he who has been forgiven much, loves much. I can see that in me. I was not a nice guy. I’m a nice guy today and I’m thankful.
Whats exactly the purpose of this comment?
I wanted to express myself. I look at Him differently, I guess. I think everyone needs to be heard. I think we can lose sight of him by seeking knowledge about him over being one with him. I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me
Can’t we know and enjoy him without being scholars?
For me, obeying him is the crux of Christianity. I have struggled mightily and failed thousands of times to be and to do his will. Much of my life as a Christian has been consumed with dying to my will, my flesh, my ego. Sanctification has been a full time job and more. I had to take time off from my life to stop all activity; to pray, to seek him 24/7, and do nothing else except pray and read and go for walks, in order to break free of sins that were destroying me.
I know He’s real. I know He cares. I know He’s cool. I have been through the refiner’s fire and it was excruciating. Took many, many years.
I’m the demoniac sitting at his feet, clothed, cleaned, in my right mind, usually. I don’t need more information about him to live for him. I like learning more, for sure. I just don’t need to know what most scholars’ latest opinions are.
So you dont care about people who literally dedicate their lives to understand your so beloved God ? Are you a trinitarian?An arian?An gnopstic?Whatever you are ,i just want you to know that your belief was created by or have been studied by those people you do not care about.In the real world you have a name for that.Ignorant. And if you dont need you dont have to read our comments.Getting in here to express yourself (as if this is the first time ) and then telling me this ?
This isnt a new doctrine we are debating here,rather than something that it is believed a long time by many to see if it has any truth
I don’t understand what you mean. I don’t care about the opinions of most biblical scholars. That is true. I care about them. I think Mike L. Brown is the best NT scholar by far, a Messianic Jew, PhD., passionate believer, prolific author, radio show host, best debater I’ve seen. Bart wasn’t able to keep up with him. He towers over every scholar I’ve seen. He is a giant. He is in different league.
I believe you indicated you never experienced God working in your life. Why? What do you think is behind that?
Why? I dont know i suppose il ask him when ill meet him. Why do you think?