Yeah. As if there are no intelligent, single people in the church, who are growing in Christ and developing into mature adults.
(Please, hear the intended sarcasm.)
That’s too bad… regional factors can make a huge difference as to what’s available. I’m grateful for the Intervarsity group I attended during my last couple years of school, but have also been blessed by student-led studies, which not everyone is equipped to do. I appreciate people who work with college students – it can be difficult for people who struggle with change because the lineup of who comes is constantly fluctuating since hardly anyone is there for more than four years in a row – you really need people who can make friends quickly and pivot frequently without losing focus (which may be the type of person more drawn to urban areas than rural ones).
I can sympathize with “standing out”… I attended a Bible Study Fellowship group after college, and there was only one other person in the whole place who was also in her 20s like me, and she came with her mom.
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In my last contact with Cru that the issue was mentioned (admittedly a long time ago), the staff folks involved were pretty much YEC.
That’s too bad. I’ve heard Intelligent Design has made inroads in campus groups too. I don’t remember origins really coming up in any of the groups I was in, but I never brought it up and wasn’t really struggling with it at that point, so I don’t know how I would have been guided if I had been.
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IV and RUF I would think are typically stronger intellectually and maybe more mature spiritually.
I’m under the impression more and more people are leaving the faith. I think the chances of the kid bouncing if they were raised up in a very “Bible Belt” kind of way. Don’t raise them with toxic views and perhaps they will remain.
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Some would probably say that that ship has already sailed. And if so, then a good question to ponder might be: Just exactly which or what ‘faith’ is it that they are leaving behind?
Which is another way of saying … If Grandma’s worry is actually more that they might question any of all the massive amounts of stuff that got bundled in with their faith - then yes, she’s right to be worried. What do we say to grandma at that point?
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I would not say anything to them because it’s an old lady.
But last that, I guess i would just say that you raised them up in a very toxic belief system that was hateful and denied basic science. That it makes sense as soon as they escaped that toxic environment they abandoned that belief system. That what you need to do is hope they don’t abandon their faith over it and instead find a better non toxic form of Christianity.
At work a man mentioned that his son was gay. He’s 23. The son. The son started drinking and doing drugs and the dad was saying it’s because of the lewdness of that lifestyle.
So I told them that there is probably another reason why. There are tons of gay men who are very health conscious and don’t eat bad, don’t so drugs and are not “party monsters.” That some data indicates that by being rejected by their family, community and church and feeling like they are something god hates it can leave them in a bad spot. I then told them that if the church is rejecting them, you are basically disfellowshipping them and handing them over to Satan just like it says in the Bible.
That maybe even if they disagree, they should try to look past it and treat them like a son. I then told them that I am very aware of the clobber verses and until fairly recently in my life, I also felt that it was super clear it was sinful. But then I started listening to podcasts by old Catholics and various other podcasts about different views. That I read a book called “Torn” by Justin Lee and they presented not only a emotional argument, but in the last 1/4 of so of the book they dig into theological reasons on why they believe it’s ok. That it really helped me to hear an argument that was not just feeling based but built off of scripture.
I told them this is how I study something out.
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I read books about a person’s experience. Or listening to podcasts. Could be on anything. Let’s say it’s something I just don’t understand at all. I’ll try to first have some kind of emotional connection to that group or how a concept affects a group. A way to make them not the enemy, but friends even if it’s just friends in thought. Once I can think about them or their concept without just instinctively think “gross, weird , or some other hateful feeling” I’ll know I can move towards step two.
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I look into a technical understanding of it. For myself, I have to first have some kind of emotional connection to something , like have a punch in their fight, and then I will be more likely to be open to digging into it without constantly thinking counter arguments. Kind of like when you are in a debate or discussion and while they are talking you are barely listening and developing your own argument. I’ll do the same thing even when I’m listening to a podcast where they are sharing a view I disagree with unless I’ve softened heart towards them first.
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look as someone who is obviously from the opposing side when it comes to the YEC vs Old Age Earth debate, i do recognise that fundamentalism is likely the real problem here. Even within my own church (SDA) during the 1980’s and 1990’s, the conservatives were causing absolute chaos with their grumblings about (may i call it) modernist approach to Christianity?
“the new hymn book is of the devil”, “drums in the church are evil”, “if you eat a poor diet you are going to hell” (so to speak as we adventists dont believe in a literal hell)…it went on and on…the rednecks were running rampant.
I believe that is the problem here…rednecks and not whether or not one may loose sight of God because of the fundamental difference between religion and science.
Our kids need to be taught that salvation is biblical…period! You will not find salvation in a scientific textbook just the same as you will not find out science studying the bible…whilst obviously they are linked because we can use science to observe what God has made in the world and the universe, they serve two very different purposes. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that harmony between the two is more problematic than just accepting this point…they are different.
Some may ask the question, why then do you debate YECism so passionately? I would answer that by stating that in a public and private environment, it is indoctrination unless one is willing to show both sides of that coin.
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I understand the fear. Some lecturers seek to identify Christians in their class relatively early to humiliate them so they can focus their personal animistic anti-God pro-feminism beliefs while mocking their view of Christianity.
They want you to identify yourself so they can slaughter your faith, or just mock you. They want you to stand up to them - it is their mission in life.
But it doesn’t work with adult classes.
In my case, when doing PhD research work, the guest Canadian philosophy lecturer tried to ridicule the concept of how God would resurrect all the unsaved dead from all time to face the great white judgement. I said he didn’t have a clue what he was talking about. I enjoyed the encounter while others looked on in horror questioning their esteemed lecturer. One lecturer told me she hates adults in her class as they happily disagree and argue with her, while young people are sponges, sheep, and easy to manipulate.
The answer don’t play their game -OR- get educated
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This probably won’t help if you tell them this, but it is true. The vast majority of professors are not trying to destroy their grandchildren’s faith because they are too busy trying to get tenure, publish papers (publish or perish), and get their lessons done. At least, that this my experience with academics. A lot of professors I know are actually very worried about offending their students’ beliefs and intentionally avoid the topic of faith because of it. I have only met one or two professors that would be likely to go out of their way to criticize a student’s beliefs in front of class.
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Here is an interesting counterpoint observation coming from Russell Moore’s “Losing Our Religion…”, a book which @Randy mentioned in a political side thread. Thanks, Randy!
Moore writes …
Where at the beginning of my ministry parents used to seek my counsel about their young-adult children walking away from the faith, I was now more likely to hear from committed younger Christians wondering how to connect with parents who were politically radicalized by conspiracy theories. I was less likely to hear about wayward children going out into “the real world” and losing their faith as I was to hear about wayward parents retreating into an imaginary world and losing their minds.
Start reading this book for free: Losing Our Religion: An Altar Call for Evan... - Kindle
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If those kids have been taught YEC, then the grandmothers should be worried, as that is the biggest category of Christian kids who lose their faith in college.
The way to prepare them is to teach them that whatever may be said, the foundation is Jesus – the Incarnation with the Crucifixion and the Resurrection. Jesus is the foundation of the faith and of the church, not the misguided young-earth philosophy.
Make clear to them that people down through the ages have set out to prove that the Resurrection never happened yet ended up believing because they found that the evidence was sufficient to “convict” Jesus of rising from the dead.
As for professors in the classroom, two points:
- Professors are entitled to their own opinions, but just as with anything else unless they are speaking from and about the subject matter of their course those opinions aren’t worth any more than one from some random person in a bar.
- Professors giving negative statements about any religion are almost always in violation of university policy, and students should not just feel free to report them but to do so as a favor to all that professor’s students on the future.
Ehrman simply followed the logic of the church he was brought up at, that if there was any error in the Bible then the whole thing was false. Plainly Wheaton failed to ground him in the faith! The tragedy is that while he believed the conclusion that there are errors in the scriptures, he also believed the lie that the presence of any error invalidated the whole thing.
Ehrman didn’t get taught that Christ is the center, that Genesis only makes sense in the light of the life, Crucifixion, and Resurrection of Christ, so his faith failed.
In my experience kids raised in credal churches that emphasized the Nicene Creed as the summation of the faith had far less trouble that those who claimed to be “Bible only”. They knew that no matter what anyone might say about the scriptures, or even what they themselves might conclude, the core of the matter was in the Creed with focus on the Incarnation.
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I always preferred to point students to InterVarsity Christian Fellowship because it operates on a more scholarly level that is appropriate to students who are supposed to be learning to learn.
That was my experience. They had enthusiasm but it was fairly shallow; no one wanted any tough questions to be asked.
This too.
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Dawkins saying what he said (your paraphrase) was guaranteed to elicit the sort of response that you say you hear parents having. I read Dawkins – or tried to.
But those who grow up in environments that hold to one particular interpretation of the development of the universe are going to go practically anywhere in their lives and encounter other views. If not, they will remain a Dawkins in a different direction.
Parents cannot wrap their kids in cotton and most probably know that. The point of university — though imperfectly experienced — is to help broaden the experience and knowledge of the attendee (student), producing, therefore, a more fully developed human being (theoretically) and to provide training (background) and experience in subjects that they can take out into the “real world” and make use of. If that does not include engaging in different perspectives, even ones that they may not have been raised with, even ones that are challenging — and learning to ask questions and seek answers – and to make their beliefs their own, not their parents — then something is lacking.
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Love that quote from Mill! Thanks
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Good thoughts, St Roymond…In the remarks about E’s background “plainly Wheaton failed to ground him in the faith!”—my observation is that he likely got a range of perspectives at Wheaton – which is not YEC on the main. The real reasons for E’s change of heart are probably complex — true for all of us — and largely unspoken and mostly only known to him.
Two out of how many, though. I have long been part of churches where ever greater parts of the congregation have been brain-washing themselves, since probably before I was aware of it in the mid ‘80s, to believe that all college and university profs are out to destroy their faith. This simply is not true.
My profs didn’t have time for that level of unprofessionalism. They weren’t concerned about their students’ faith or lack of faith or overall life philosophy. They had a syllabus to cover and tons of other work to do.
They would have cared if a student had tried to highjack a class or assignement to make it an evangelistic event.
Regarding adults in classes, as an undergrad I had lots. Urban campus in the ‘80s; average student age was 30; lots of retooling for “rightsized” companies. My profs and I actually really appreciated the mature thinking and life experience of the “adult” students in the classes. They asked better, deeper questions and simply had broader context to draw from. There were days, when it was just the thrill of the hum of the hive.
Two rounds of grad school; same thing. We didn’t all always agree, and the profs were ok with that. As long as we stuck to the syllabus. Outside of class, the few I had a chance to have personal conversations with, were real people. They were interesting, and thought their students were valuable people to get to know as well. The prof who saw me through a couple semesters with horrible personal stuff going on had little or nothing philosophically in common with me, but she was incredibly supportive.
Sorry your two experiences were what they were, but they are in no way “normal.”
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It’s my understanding that it was much more so back then. But the point was that either way they didn’t ground students in Christ as the center, which failed Ehrman.
He has commented on them, and it blew me away when he said that all the variant readings made him doubt and eventually abandon his faith. Had he been grounded in Christ, the reaction would have been, “So what is God’s purpose in there being all these variant readings?” rather than “God isn’t competent to protect His Book!”
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