Reasons why metaphysics and philosophy of mind are needed to figure out human origins

[Terry_Sampson]

@marta

…if we are some kind of automata then how can we choose to obey God?

Ask Paul the Automata par excellence, who wailed: “Romans 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.”

@marta

If we do, then it’s meaningless anyway as it’s not really a choice.

Do you really think you should get points for making meaningful, correct choices that don’t come naturally?

[marta]

@Terry_Sampson

So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin

To me this would imply that although our bodies lead us to sin, our minds our free to choose God, but I haven’t had time now to read this in wider context, so I may revisit this.

@Terry_Sampson

Do you really think you should get points for making meaningful, correct choices that don’t come naturally?

Yes, especially if they DON’T come naturally as it would mean you had to make bigger effort than a person who is simply inclined that way. Please don’t make this sound childish by using phrases like “getting points”. I feel as though you haven’t answered my questions.
Regards
Marta

[Terry_Sampson]

@marta

Please don’t make this sound childish by using phrases like “getting points”.

I’m sorry that you think my question diminishes the importance of your position in your opinion. That certainly wasn’t my intention. The position that any person holds is profoundly important, regardless which position the person holds.

@marta

I feel as though you haven’t answered my questions.

I’m trying as best as I can given the fact I haven’t compiled a complete list of all possible questions and answers and am having to try to come up with one now and then.

The whole issue of my opinion regarding the nature and importance of Free Will came up when I tossed out my perhaps-too-casual comment: “My sidebar note for “Free will” fans: A bit much, IMO, to expect “Free Will” to bail you out of dilemmas, when your conscious mind does so little.”

• Nelson opened this thread with his emphasis on the importance of The Mind (i.e. IMO, “consciousness”.
• I noticed that he devoted a whole chapter to “consciousness” in his book.
• I dragged in the Time magazine article entitled "Why You’re Pretty Much Unconscious All the Time” [Consciousness] in the hope that he might recognize and acknowledge the equal importance of an outside-of-the-skull environment in consciousness-development. As I said to Nelson: “No language; No Mind; No Stimulation: No Language.”
• MarkD challenged “amicably” my position that current scientific research suggests that what goes on in our unconscious mind is substantially more important than Free Will which operates in the conscious realm of the mind. We differ in how we view things.
• You entered, expressed your surprise that I think so little of Free Will, and told me about the atheist argument: i.e. that disproving Free Will is a “final blow” to theism.
• Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that I’m now in a position where I’m expected to explain how I can belittle Free Will and be a theist at the same time.
• If so, then it seems that what you want from me is an explanation that justifies belief in theism and in no Free Will.
• And so far, you don’t think I’ve given you an explanation.

Sound about right?

[marta]

@Terry_Sampson

• Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that I’m now in a position where I’m expected to explain how I can belittle Free Will and be a theist at the same time.
• If so, then it seems that what you want from me is an explanation that justifies belief in theism and in no Free Will.
• And so far, you don’t think I’ve given you an explanation.

Sound about right?

It does, you are really good at summing whole threads up, seen you doing it elsewhere.
Just please don’t interpret this as me trying to arm wrestle with you. After all I haven’t fully expressed my own views yet…
It’s just that I do find your opinion unusual for a Christian and I’m genuinely interested how is it that you can be completely fine with something that’s used as an argument by atheists. No, I don’t think you have given me an explanation, have you? If for whatever reason you don’t want to air your views in public, then feel free, as always, to send me a private message.

@Terry_Sampson

Ask Paul the Automata par excellence

So I have read the entire chapter 7 of Romans and actually if read from verse 14 onwards, it does seem to support your views on free will, but then it is a matter of interpretation and I’m no bible scholar. And as far as I’m concerned, great majority of Christians believe in free will, in fact some see it as fundamental.
Regards
Marta

[Terry_Sampson]

@marta

Just please don’t interpret this as me trying to arm wrestle with you.

You? Never. Farthest thing from my mind.

@marta

how is it that you can be completely fine with something that’s used as an argument by atheists.

What I find surprising is that there are atheists who are so eager to trip theists up that they would reject the notion of free will. I’m wondering if those who belittle free will do so because they’ve noticed that so many Christians thank God for their own free will.

@marta

No, I don’t think you have given me an explanation, have you?

Until you say I have or holler “stop”, I’ll assume that I haven’t.

@marta

If for whatever reason you don’t want to air your views in public, then feel free, as always, to send me a private message.

I hadn’t thought to do so, but I probably should before I attract horseflies.

[marta]

@Terry_Sampson

What I find surprising is that there are atheists who are so eager to trip theists up that they would reject the notion of free will

You must have led a sheltered life then LOL (I don’t actually think that you have😉)
Myself, I don’t think anything coming from atheists surprises me anymore(it’s not equivalent to “nothing gets under my skin”, something I need to work on)

@Terry_Sampson

@marta

If for whatever reason you don’t want to air your views in public, then feel free, as always, to send me a private message.

I hadn’t thought to do so, but I probably should before I attract horseflies.

Are your views really this controversial? LOL

[GarciaGonzalez (Nelson E. Garcia)]

Marta and Terry, just before your long argument I posted a comment on free will (my philosopher’s opinion on it) and got no replies, here is my comment again:
The universe; as extension of the Big Bang, is a purely deterministic environment. Free will begins with mind, and it is possible only because of genetic instructions meant to make it possible (set in the chain of species make-up) most likely to make judgment of its use by human beings an objective determination.

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

@GarciaGonzalez

(my philosopher’s opinion on it)

In what sense are you a philosopher Nelson?

[GarciaGonzalez (Nelson E. Garcia)]

Klax, I do not make references to religion, I comment on metaphysics, philosophy of mind and philosophy related subjects. If you mean what is my concentration or main interest, it is the nature of realness.

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

But may I call myself a scientist just by keeping my posts to those topics?

[SkovandOfMitaze (Mi)]

One thing to consider also is that we are all seeing roughly the same thing. If not we would never be able to ID things.

[GarciaGonzalez (Nelson E. Garcia)]

Mark, in my case I have my own metaphysical persuasion written in a book, you would need the equivalent in science if you ask me, but perhaps some scientists would set different standards to consider you a scientist.

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

I have written no such book and am only an interested reader of science. I have some opinions in matters such as origins where some details aren’t so settled. At any rate you’ve obviously had more interest and ambitions in philosophy than I have had in science.

[GarciaGonzalez (Nelson E. Garcia)]

Mark, instead of replying directly to your question I chose to point out I am a philosopher for reasons other than posting philosophy topics.

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

@GarciaGonzalez

Klax, I do not make references to religion, I comment on metaphysics, philosophy of mind and philosophy related subjects. If you mean what is my concentration or main interest, it is the nature of realness.

Then we are all philosophers and scientists here similarly.

[T_aquaticus]

@GarciaGonzalez

I complete such claim by saying: the five human senses do a very good job at seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and dermal feeling by touch but what is cognized is not something located in the external world, only the appearance-less essence of what is cognized is located in the external world and it is mind what provides all cognized appearances and details.

If this were so, then you would need to explain why science has been so successful. If we weren’t able to accurately measure the external world then science shouldn’t work, but it does work.