Questions about nested Hierarchy

A nested hierarchy is any pattern of grouping where larger groups are divided into smaller groups, which are divided into smaller groups, etc. One group does not cut across another group. For example, the set of people who live in a particular county is a subset of those living in a particular state, and that is a subset of the people who live in a country (assuming geopolitical subdivisions are named like in many parts of the US). Everyone who lives in my county lives in North Carolina, and everyone who lives in North Carolina lives in the U.S. But the set of people who live near the ocean versus those who live far from the ocean cuts across those. People can be relatively near to or far from the ocean and be in the same state or country. That’s a non-nested hierarchy.

Biological classification follows a nested hierarchy. All known life fits into either Bacteria, Archaea, or Eukaryota. In turn, we can recognize kingdoms within each of those domains, and phyla (or divisions) within the kingdoms, and classes in the phyla, and so on down. The general pattern is obvious to anyone, and it was formally developed in Linnaeus’ classification in the mid-1700’s, well before any major evolutionary ideas became popular.

Evolution produces a generally nested hierarchy. If species A and B split from each other, and then A splits into C and D and B splits into E and F, this will make C and D more similar to each other, and E and F more similar to each other. Lateral gene transfer and incomplete lineage sorting do occur, but for eukaryotes those are generally relatively minor components of the genome. Human designers, on the other hand, tend to take pieces from various sources. Although you could trace the origin of a current Ford model through the company history, a modern Ford has a significant input from the computer industry, among other sources, and does not simply derive from a long line of tweaking a Model T.

Assessing evolutionary connections requires an overall consideration of features. Both convergent and parallel evolution should happen if evolution is occurring. Identifying whether a feature evolved convergently or in parallel, versus indicating actual close relationship, requires several considerations. (Incidentally, these are often not well-explained in general biology textbooks). What function does the feature have? If it is specifically useful, the feature is likely to be developed convergently, but key details will often be quite different. For example, tuna, squids, requiem sharks, ichthyosaurs, dolphins, and submarines all have similarly streamlined shapes -anything moving quickly through water needs that. But there are major differences in the structure and use of the fins and flippers - the streamlined shape is convergent. On the other hand, all except the submarine share a large set of biochemical and developmental similarities that are not necessary for their lifestyle. Those similarities are most simply explained by descent from a common ancestor. Bat, bird, pterosaur, and insect wings have similar external shape - they are all wings and have to be shaped appropriately for flight. But their internal structures are different. The insect wing, made from a chitinous exoskeleton, is totally different from the other three. All of the others have bones built of apatite, with a generally similar basic structure to them. This reflects their all being vertebrates, descended from an ancestor with bones. They also have similar sets of bones in the wings - we can recognize a humerus, radius, ulna, carpals, metacarpals, and phalanges. These reflect all three being descended from an ancestor with front limbs having a particular set of bones. But the bird, bat, and pterosaur use those bones very differently to build the wing, showing that the wing itself evolved separately in the three groups. Birds have long feathers sticking off the back of the arm, and the hand is quite reduced. Bat wings are mostly hand. Pterosaurs have one long finger supporting the front of the wing, with stiff rods providing support within the wing. They also incorporate the hind legs into the wing. Conversely, all birds have similar structure to their wings. We don’t find hawks with wings that are more like bats and robins with wings that are more like pterosaurs. All birds have similar wing types. This follows a nested hierarchy. A bat could keep warm with contour feathers or with fur - there is no functional requirement for bats to not have feathers, and a designer working like a human engineer might well make such a mix. But we do not see such mixing in nature.

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When classification was decided there was no interest in heredity or ancestry. How much has nested hierarchy changed the links made in classification? IOW what has nested hierarchy brought to the table that basic classification did not?

Richard

The basic classification, which indeed had nothing to do with ancestry, was already in terms of a nested hierarchy. The classification based on phylum, class, order, etc is a nested hierarchy. That’s because a nested hierarchy is the natural way to describe living things. It also happens to be a natural product of evolution.

What was a big change was the addition of genetics to the existing hierarchy. When we started comparing the DNA of various species, it turned out that the DNA also fell naturally into a nested hierarchy, and one that happened to be very much the same as the one that had already been worked out. That is true whatever kind of DNA you look at, including DNA that performs different functions in different species, DNA that performs the identical function, and DNA that performs no function at all.

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There are certainly limits to how much completely different genes can produce the same results. This is one discovery of a study of mimicry between the Heliconius erato (Red Postman) and Heliconius melpomene (Postman) butterflies. The reason for mimicry is that the latter releases unpleasant chemicals when attacked. A study revealed that the ability of the former to mimic the appearance of the latter was limited by the differences in genetics (which made the way they constructed their wings somewhat different). So while approximate similarities certainly do not require the same genetics, making things exactly the same can be made quite difficult when the genetics are completely different.

This is not any kind of counter example to nested hierarchy. Quite the contrary. The wings of the two butterflies serve the same function and that similarity is analogous. Nested hierarchy looks closer at the details of how the wing is constructed, so the nested hierarchy is according to the homologous.

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A nested hierarchy does heavily evidence common ancestry.

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I just love the way you just casually insert a piece of dogma and the assumption of evolutionists about the theory. Which came first, evolutionary theory or nested Hierarchy? That is, of course rhetorical, but you make it sound as if Nested Hierarchy was just waiting to be found. You have just said that nested hierarchy is a natural product of evolution, when what is being stated is that Nested hierarchy is proving evolution. You looked for something so it was no surprise when you found the connections you were looking for.
Once again evolution breaks the laws governing research. You were always going to see connections because they had to be there, to fit the existing dogma. IOW the conclusion came before the evidence.

Richard

General question.
How can a random process be governed by or even contains or is understood by, any sort of algorithm? Isn’t that a contradiction?

Richard

I think you have it a bit backwards.

The orbit of Mars might be a good analogy. If you track Mars in the night sky over a long period of time you will observe that it moves in one direction across the sky, stops, and then goes in the opposite direction. This repeats. This movement stumped astronomers in earlier time periods. It wasn’t until Galileo and other scientists discovered Heliocentrism that we finally had an answer as to why Mars moves like it does.

The same for the nested hierarchy. The organization of life was known about for a long time, and it wasn’t until the discovery of common ancestry and evolution that we finally understood why we see this pattern in biology.

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Random processes are modeled by algorithms all of the time. We can also model random processes with mathematical formulae, which is exactly what happens in quantum mechanics and thermodynamics.

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That does not answer the question. It just confirms that the paradox exists.

An algorithm implies order. Random is chaos.If there is an order(algorithm) it is not random.

Richard

There is no paradox in heat transfer. Atoms and molecules randomly interact with others, the higher energy ones transferring energy to lower energy ones.

But is there an algorithm that can predict which molecules will react with each other? If not then your comparison is invalid.

Richard

There are algorithms for the random processes. We don’t care about individual atoms or molecules.

But your algorithms are not describing the process they are mimicking the results. Again, that is not a comparison with what I am hearing about Nested Hierarchy. The links are being found by algorithms.

This darn abstraction thingy. It’s tricky.

Richard

I’m sorry, but I can’t figure out what your complaint is. Whether it’s right or wrong, the theory is the theory – what does it mean for evolutionists to make an assumption about the theory? Evolution as a process provides a possible explanation for the observed nested hierarchy among living things. That doesn’t guarantee that it’s the right explanation, but you won’t understand anything about why biologists accept evolution unless you understand both parts: living things fall into a nested hierarchy, and evolution explains why there would be a nested hierarchy.

Nested hierarchy. From your response I can’t tell whether you understand that or not.

It was. That’s why (as has already been explained to you), the nested hierarchy was discovered before evolution was proposed as an explanation for it.

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I use (pseudo)random algorithms all the time.

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How so?

Yes, just as many other patterns are found in nature using algorithms. They are a scientific tool and are used all of the time. If you are criticizing scientists for using algorithms then you are barking up the wrong tree.

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In the very same way, the retrograde orbit of Mars was known about well before the theory of Heliocentrism came about. Once the theory was discovered we then realized why Mars had a retrograde orbit. The same for the nested hierarchy and the theory of evolution.

If you think we are wrong, then please tell us what pattern of similarities common ancestry and evolution should produce if it isn’t a nested hierarchy.

That’s like saying we only saw the retrograde orbit of Mars once we decided to believe in Heliocentrism.

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For a bit of historical context:

Yet another great historical reference from 1882.

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@T_aquaticus, thank you for your response.

First let me correct something. The evidence points to the fact that feathers were not a directed adaptive response to the need for flight. There were many flying dinosaurs who did not have feathers and who were not the ancestors of the birds. Therefore, the evidence is clear that feathers are not needed for flight.

There were many differences between birds and flying dinosaurs. By the way is that diagram saying that humans are in a direct line with lizards and bird dinosaurs mean that we are not descendants of the mammals. It is believed that feathers evolved as insulation to keep the avian dinosaurs warm in climate that was becoming colder. The flying dinosaurs did not have feathers to stay warm and they became extinct.

Bats of course are very different from birds. They do not have feathers, but they do have wings. To my untrained eyes their wings seem very similar to those of the birds, although there are also differences.

It is clear to me that bats are structured to fit into a very different environment. They forage at night and feast primarily on insects. The birds, owls, forage at night feed primarily on small mammals using enhanced eyesight.

Ther following isa direct quote from the Scientific American, Sept 2018 issue which was centered on the evolution of humans. “We tend to think of evolution through natural selection as a process in which changes to the external environment, such as predators, climate, or disease trigger evolutionary refinements in an organism’s traits.” p.39, An Evolved Uniqueness.

If this is the understanding of evolution (that evolution is based environmental changes) found in an important scientific journal supported by many scientists. why do people on BioLogos seem to think that is wrong?