I wonder how these artists felt when expressing biblical imagery.
Itās good to hear you will be reading Joshua Swamidassās book. āThe Genealogical Adam and Eveā.
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The artist rendering is just their interpretationā¦ biblical imagery is just imagesā¦ Ezekiel had visions and that meaning is not in artwork
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Not at all sure why you wonder if the verses in the first chapter of Ezekiel relate to the story of Adam and Eve? Ezekiel certainly had visionsā¦and artists are entitled to try and make graphic representations of these visiionsā¦but that has nothing to do with the biblical text. Ezekiel was not giving an assessment of the appearance of a heavenly being so much as he was relaying a vision that God gave Ezekeil. He was describing the vision, and the meaning of that vision were most important. The Hebrew people were in exile in Babylon for many years and Ezekiel lived and had visions during some of that time. Warnings to Israel and descriptions referring to the seige of Jerusalem were part of his preaching. Adam and Eve are not part of that.I am not surprised, given this, that the Bible is āso confusingā for you. It is not a negative about you, but you are approaching from the wrong angle.
It looks like a waste of time. Swamidass āargues that nothing in our understanding of genetics and population dynamics excludes a paranormally-created Adam and Eve several thousand years ago, created on a world where there were already humans produced by evolution.ā
Talk about begging the question. Iād much rather see a book that relates historic revivals with the spiritual awakening of ancient humans and how the Bible is the guide to understanding theological history.
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The Genealogical Adam and Eve
I donāt know of anyone who believes that and I donāt think he does. Itās just a possibility that he thinks is irenic.
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My apologies for confusing Ezekiel with the Adam and Eve story. I need to research more before responding. Iāve been taking a closer look at why I confuse stories.
There are several issues though with a plain text reading that ignores so much more that is there .
When we read genesis 1-11 we quickly realize that it is a sort of prehistory tale. The way itās wrote though is completely different from genesis 12+ and from the rest of the Torah. They take a few chapters to jump across 1,000 years of time and a dozen key people and events. The story is not written as an actual historical or biographical narrative. Reading Genesis as a plain literal text ignores all the literary clues that itās an ancient Jewish creation myth. Nothing in genesis 1-11 indicates its real factual history with scientific nuggets mixed into it. To disagree with those chapters being historical is not to disagree with the bible, but itās to disagree with one interpretation out there by literalist. Even when we see future writers hyperlink back to it ,it does not mean itās real. Referencing something is nothing more than using that , and often its symbolism and metaphors, to convey a truth.
An example would be me saying that āso and so is as strong as Hercules.ā When I make that kind of statement, Iām simply connecting to the story and Iām not even remotely suggesting that Hercules is real.
You also mention death not being before the fall. But what death? Is it physical death? God said Adam would die on the very day he ate of the fruit. Yet Adam lived om longer than me , my son and even my theoretical future grandson would live. He did not drop over dead on that day and so what happened? Itās called spiritual death. Something died and what that was is a perfect relationship with our God. Sin is death. Yet when we sin we donāt drop over dead on the spot. None of us would be alive. We go on living out our earthly life. So the wages of sin is death , and itās the same wage of sin Adam faced, you, me and people a thousand years from now will face. Itās death to having a relationship with God. Itās death to everlasting life. We all die and are resurrected. Some to eternal life and some to the eternal punishment of the second death where we are destroyed with no hope of resurrection. Even Jesus died once and rose again to eternal life.
not sure you read my response at all, Riversea
Thanks for the response, Riversea. I am happy for the explanation. Yes, I can see that you are trying to make some connections with what you are reading. I am not sure what your native language is and/or what your religion isāHindu?? just wondering. It just seems to me that you need to start with some basic things. There is nothing wrong with wanting to explore various subjects. But having a few basic concepts in mind would help. And if this is not your native language, then that is harder, I am quite sure. As for Ezekielās dream ā the verses you citedāthey related to matters that affected the nation of Israel during the time of their captivity in Babylon. It had nothing to do with Adam and Eve. I think you were under the impression that it did.
And you also puzzled about the matter of an artistās rendering of Ezekielās vision. Artists can do what they do. But that is irrelevant. In the Bible, God says He is One. There are not 300 million godsā¦just One. There is no god but Him. And He does not want images made of Himselfā¦not at all! So a vision of Ezekielās was something given to Ezekiel for reasons specific to Ezekiel and to his times. It is not really relevant to us. But let artists drawā¦that is what artists doā¦ It is good that you want to explore these things. But you seem to be all over the place. One subject at a time! Ultimately the Bible is the story of Godās efforts to reach out to, and to redeem, His hardened human race. He chose one group of people through whom the means of redemption would come. That group was descended from a Chaldean man named Abram (later Abraham) whose descendants came to populate a section of the ancient near east. This was after a lengthy experience as oppressed people (slaves) in Egyptā¦and the text of the Bible goes on from there. It does not give dates for these events for the most part. This is why people (like those on this site) can debate them so much.
I do wish you success in your search but do suggest you start with something basic and move on from there.
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not sure i would say āparanormally createdā butā¦OKā¦I read Swamidoss. Itās an intriguing theoryā¦not sure what else to say or thinkā¦
Genealogical Adam and Eve equals genetic humanity, which is only good for justifying eugenics and racism but terrible for Christianity. I would discard the idea of an historical Adam and Eve before I would accept anything like that.
There is of course nothing like this in the Bible. It is a typical Deistic pattern to force scientific ideas onto the Bible until you have nothing recognizable as Christianity anymore. The Bible and our humanity is not about genetics, species, or biology. It is about a relationship with God and abstract ideas like love and justice which require faith.
And we can take the Bible so much more seriously about when all this happened if we simply donāt try reading it as if it were a science text book. There is no need to turn 6,000 years into 600,000 years and hide Adam and Eve in a past so distant that they might as well not exist at allā¦ if you just give up on the obsession with genetics.
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maybeā¦but I have heard, or read, people with a high view of the Bible as a txt āand who do not, in all cases, have a high view of the Bible. Your observation is a good one. But the Bibleābefore the time of Christ ā pointed to the coming of Christ and so it would be natural for a higher view of the Bible to be connected to Jesus
Mikeā¦sorry for my previous response to thisā¦it made no sense when I re-read it just now. Jesus had a high view of the Bible ā in noting that the prophets of ancient Israel wrote of His coming and of the extreme importance in following the various Laws contained thereinā¦but there are people with what could be called āa high view of the Bibleā today who nonetheless have alternate views of Jesus. And many who do have a high view ā and believe also in Jesus ā do so because the OT wrote of Himā¦among other reasons.
I took a look at the proposal of Swamidass.
I agree with 1, 4, and 6.
I disagree with 3 and 5.
And have problems with 2ā¦ so I would replace 2, 3, and 5 as follows
2-We are all descendants of Adam and Eve in the same way that we are children of God. We have an inheritance from them. But it is not a genetic inheritance but an inheritance of ideas and habits.
3-God created Adam and Eve not by magic or design but as a participant in the lives of living things in the way of shepherds, teachers and parents, because Adam and Eve were not machines or magical golems but living beings who became what they were by growth and learning ā participants in their own creation.
5-A miracle is the involvement of God and NOT the violation of the laws of nature God created. Thus miracles are everywhere in all things as part of the real world and not some fantasy.
This confirms my basic criticism in my previous post that this genealogical Adam and Eve puts too much stock in genetics, as if our humanity was just a matter of genetics. I think this is wrong. We are more than just genetics and a biological species. There is another inheritance essential to our humanity.
No worries. I basically got what you were saying. I didnāt know what to say in response. For some reason I keep thinking about Kings James only religious groups, and Iām not sure if that qualifies as a high view of Scripture.
Wellā¦I donāt think I have contact with any King James peopleā¦but I have heard or read remarks about the biblical text ā positive ones āby people who are not Christian and/ or by people speaking in a nonsectarian academic settingā¦ everyone has presuppositions of courseā¦ thanks for your reply
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