Although Asia Minor, where the people written to in the Book of Revelation located did stay under the Roman Empire for hundreds to almost a thousand years afterwards before being subsumed by the Turks so that is a very significant fact. Yet I think that it’s the city of Rome and the Latin part of the empire where more of the judgement is focused on. Babylon the Great is Rome after all, and the Roman Empire did spring from the Latins.
The Book of Revelation was written for the people at the time. Thus all of the connections are ones that only someone of that era would understand. It was not meant to be used by anyone else, and the general consensus is that it is not a prediction of what would, or is supposed to happen. It was not written for us.
Also, the “letters” to the 7 churches were not penned by Jesus personally; they were an abstraction of what was going on at the time in those churches. Yet, one of the most common mistakes that some translations make, is to put those words in “red” as if Jesus spoke them personally.
Even the Pauline Letters and the others were interpretations, and extractions of how the Apostles thought Jesus would have answered an inquiry. There is no textual evidence in “The Revelation of Saint John the Divine” that would lead one to believe that Jesus was directly speaking so that someone could take down his words, nor is there any textual evidence, that if these were, in fact, “letters” to the Churches, that the text was directly delivered to the churches that the “letters” were “sent”.
If you consider the prophecies to a certain extent “fictional”, then whether they came true or not is simply not important.
And what I consider an important indication of this is “the number of the beast” is either 616 (in the earliest text) or 666. Both are gematria of Nero Caesar in the Hebrew or Greek spelling.
Why would we consider the prophecies fictional though? May you expound more upon that for me?
Interesting… can you name an example for my education?
I always feel insecure reading that verse, as if was added by some scribe who wanted Revelation into the canon.
An important issue here is what we understand by the word prophecy.
I personally consider Revelation to be true. And there is clearly a futuristic element to the book. The angel in chapter 4 says to John “Come, and I will show you what will happen after this.” But everything that John sees is highly pictorial, at the level of There will be great evil and suffering, but God’s kingdom will triumph in the end. It’s not at the level of predicting specific events such as World war 2 or the Twin Towers attack.
We see this throughout the Bible. For example, many of Jesus’ parables work the same way. Consider the parable of the wheat and the weeds (Matthew 13.34-40). This is prophetic, if we want to use this word, because Jesus is talking about how it will be in God’s kingdom between his time and the final judgment. But if we think that way, I would call it a thematic prophecy, not a historical narrative prophecy. Jesus is saying that the whole future period to the final judgment will be characterised by an interplay of both growing evil and growing righteousness. And God will sort it out, but only at the end. In this sense, the parable is actually a good framework for interpreting Revelation.
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I don’t know of historical parallels to this form of writing, but even on its own terms I don’t find it problematic. The main problem is at our end, when we read too much into the text. John is not being canonical here. He’s simply talking about his own writing. The warning is about the text of Revelation alone, and no other biblical writings. He’s just saying in effect, This is what I saw, and don’t edit it!
People who apply this to the whole Bible are misreading it.
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Likely so, which would mean during the first century.
Here is a farfetched one :
When A=1 and Z=26 we get
C = 3 x 6 = 18
O = 15 x 6 = 90
M = 13 x 6 = 78
P = 16 x 6 = 96
U = 21 x 6 = 126
T = 20 x 6 = 120
E = 5 x 6 = 30
R = 18 x 6 = 108
TOTAL = 666
With reference to -
Rev 13:17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.
Rev 13:18 This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.
We are moving fast to a world where you can not buy or sell without the internet, where money on paper hardly exists any longer and every money transaction goes via your credit card or pin pas. If someone at this moment could control the internet this would give him/her ultimate power, already now.
Farfetched I know.
Funnily enough, I asked my favorite internet apologist Michael Jones of Inspiringphilosophy the question that this topic is based on, and he pointed me to this video.
It seems he appeals to the conditional nature of Ancient Near Eastern prophecy. It’s a good answer and explains the partial fulfillment in 476 AD.
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Terry is quoting part of Martin Luther…that does not mean that taking part of the writings out of their context is correct!
Secondly, its not my fault if this stupid discourse engine quotes the way it does…not my problem as i just highlight Terrys post and hit the quote button.
complain to discourse about that…not me!!
The fact you did not include the context of my response there is point and example and i rest my case on the grace part.
Finally, I do not align with Martin Luther’s theology…the guy was a reformed Catholic…im evangelical, we are worlds apart in theology and doctrine! Where Martin Luthers statements align with the bible, i have no problem, but many of his claims do not.
for example:
“Christ committed adultery first of all with the women at the well about whom St. John tell’s us. Was not everybody about Him saying: ‘Whatever has He been doing with her?’ Secondly, with Mary Magdalen, and thirdly with the women taken in adultery whom He dismissed so lightly. Thus even, Christ who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died.” (ref. Trishreden, Weimer Edition, Vol. 2, Pg. 107
“I have greater confidence in my wife and my pupils than I have in Christ” (ref. Table Talk, 2397b)
“It does not matter how Christ behaved – what He taught is all that matters” (ref. Erlangen Vol. 29, Pg. 126)
“[The commandments] only purpose is to show man his impotence to do good and to teach him to despair of himself” (ref: Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), Volume III, p. 364).
“It is more important to guard against good works than against sin.” (ref. Trischreden, Wittenberg Edition, Vol. VI., p. 160)
“There is no scandal greater, more dangerous, more venomous, than a good outward life, manifested by good works and a pious mode of life. That is the grand portal, the highway that leads to damnation.” (ref. Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. II, pg. 128)
“Man is like a horse. Does God leap into the saddle? The horse is obedient and accommodates itself to every movement of the rider and goes whither he wills it. Does God throw down the reins? Then Satan leaps upon the back of the animal, which bends, goes and submits to the spurs and caprices of its new rider… Therefore, necessity, not free will, is the controlling principle of our conduct. God is the author of what is evil as well as of what is good, and, as He bestows happiness on those who merit it not, so also does He ■■■■ others who deserve not their fate.” (ref. ‘De Servo Arbitrio’, 7, 113 seq., quoted by O’Hare, in ‘The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, pp. 266-267)
I have about 30 more stupid claims from Martin Luther if you want to read them???
The point i make here that is relevant to Terrys post is, it is not aqcademically smart to exclusively take doctrine from early church fathers who were not witness to Christs ministry(disciples) or revelation (Paul is the only example of this). What we do is use those to support existing biblical theology in order to help support sound doctrine.
To illustrate with a personal example, i do not “believe” the writings of Ellen White because its claimed she is a prophet. I “agree” with her writings because they align with existing biblical theology and doctrine! Nothing more nothing less. If she says anything that doesnt appear to me to be biblical, then i diverge with her on those points.
I am an ecclectic Christian, not an indoctrinated cult follower. It just so happens that the best answers to my questions comes from SDA’s, hence a remain aligned with that denominations beliefs.
It’s far-fetched and false. Revelation was written for people at the time. 666 - Nero. There is no doubt about that. It was John’s way of secretly referring to a Roman Emperor who was evil and caused much misery. Many reading Revelation at the time would have understood John’s use of gematria, as it is Neron Caesar when written in Greek, but transliterated into Hebrew letters. The fact that other manuscripts have been found with the alternative 616 essentially proves it, as 616 reflects the alternative spelling at the time of Nero Caesar. It appears the scribes knew full well to whom John was referring.
Wow!
To be honest, I don’t know how to reply to that. I feel dumped on. I feel shouted at. I certainly don’t feel like I’ve been listened to.
I guess the best thing is to agree to differ and steer clear of each other. All the best.
Given the internet was designed to function after a world war it is difficult/impossible for any one to gain control.
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I think Jones confuses the time leading up to and including the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem, and Jesus’ physical return to earth. Like many he understands much of Matt 24 to be about the future and Jesus’ return, when in fact most of it was about the 1st century. I dont buy his ‘conditional’ prophecy argument. Jesus’ reference to ‘winter’, for example, is to the time of the Jerusalem destruction, a great tribulation indeed. I think when he was commenting on someone else’s video on a similar subject, Jones admitted that the understanding I am expressing is possible.
Unlike the time leading up to the destruction of the Temple for which Jesus gave signs for the people to look out for, and when they started to see them they should flee, he said no signs would be given for his return. Noone knows when it will happen and no hints will be given. If anything, life will be going on as normal when it finally happens.
you just have to cut a few cables and the internet becomes useless.
Not so. As I said it was designed to survive World War III when more than a few cables would be cut.
The internet was just a communication network between some universities. It only later became the world wide web. Cut a few cables, such as the transatlantic one, and it becomes useless. No longer world wide.
Well, Jesus outright conflates his return with the destruction of the temple in the Olivet Discourse. Yes, most of it was about the first century, but he also says that when one sees these signs take place that his return is right at the door.
Likewise, he mentions multiple times in the gospels that he would return in a generation, and that some listening to him would not die before they saw him coming back. He’s clearly talking about the second coming, not some judgement coming.
And when the church fathers mentioned why he didn’t come in a generation, they said that the prophecy was conditional upon how people responded, and that passage in Second Peter that explained why Christ had not returned said that to God a day is a thousand years and a thousand years is to a day, and importantly that God was giving people more time to repent, so the Bible itself says that prophesies are conditional and especially says this about the Parousia
The Bible is full of prophecies that did not come true, were delayed, or were partially fulfilled because of the actions of those prophesized to.
Indeed, he refers specifically to the words he has written.
Again, not so. The original network was ARPANET. The original funding came from the Defense Department.
Cables, satellite links, microwave links. The routing protocols are designed to find alternate paths so you would have to destroy a whole bunch of interconnects to bring down the entire internet. Of course when the fiber to your house gets cut you are no longer on the WWW.
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