Question about antitheists and salvation

Faith & Science Conversation
6

Sure. But the choice of actions do not automatically follow. Understanding why people do something is not the same as saying it is justified.

Of course.

But I don’t believe that hell is something God does to people, but rather something that people do to themselves. Same after life as it is on earth.

A lot of people here feel the same way.

Alas… I have reason to fear that it is not true.

7

Hopeful about everyone is a great place for a Christian to be. And one can be so without having to make any dogmatic pronouncements about it (either way) on God’s behalf as if we had ever been called to do that in the first place. Hoping that anybody is eternally damned on the other hand … There is at least one named character in the Bible who pursues that adversarial goal. And it isn’t God. Occasionally, or often, we may feel that way towards some, but we should never doubt which of the two aforementioned characters we are better off trying to pattern ourselves after.

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8

It just seems to weird to me. If God is like a loving Father why wouldn’t he do such thing? I mean it’s his child. He went through a lot. He got hurt way too much. All he needed at the end was love and a hug from his father who thought he didn’t help or that he wasn’t there.

Any loving father in this world would break in tears and hug his child with love welcoming him home ,despite the child hating him(which in his mind the hate was justifiable and it seemed so).

There are many people like the example above in this world. I refuse to believe they all are going to be condemned

9

judge not lest you be judged

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

various verses about Jesus as the judge

If there is a verse that tells us to judge other people I can’t seem to recall it.

10

The loving and longing parent is one of the greatest images of God we are presented in scriptures, I think. Imagine being a father yourself - with a large family. But some of your own children decide they hate some others of their brothers and sisters because they did something that hurt each other. The loving Father wants all his children to love each other - but now that sin and hatred has come in between some of them, what is the Father supposed to do? Since He loves his family, he absolutely loathes the sin that has crept in to split them apart, so the Father resolves to destroy that sin so that His family can be whole and together again. Because for some of his kids not to love each other also necessarily makes a fissure in their relationship with Him too. So the sin must go - and any that cling to it instead of to the love that God wants them to live by - they must be forced to endure whatever separation or loss or consequence (hell fire even) that their sin brings about. They are powerless to undo their sin for themselves, but the loving Father will not leave them enslaved to it. He will have them back - and have them back cleansed and as joyful children again. He’s already made it clear that there is no price he won’t pay in order to see this through. For all His children. When somebody is smitten by love, there is no circumstance they will allow to come between them and the beloved - or… almost. God won’t force or coerce His beloved to “behave the way required” or “love God back the same, or else!” Because such coercion is not love at all. God doesn’t want our servile fear that grovels for fear of offense. He wants our freely given love and joyful relationship. And to those ends, God let’s nothing go to waste. Even all the evil and hell we make for each other - as much as that grieves God, our suffering also ends up shaping us in ways that can be used by God as it becomes part of our story, and our scars end up softening us toward showing grace to others. It’s hard when wounds are still fresh, though. And loss and grief very real.

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11

Not always . See the whole bible takes this stance that “Humans bad,God good always” . To me this is strange really.Its never Gods fault but ours. We deserve nothing and God did everything fpr us

I remember Moses changing Gods mind. Maybe God isnt perfect.And thats fine?I dont understand why this needs to be heretical saying God isnt perfect.

So i dont quite agree with all the text you brought up. God as a judge would judge the children who hurt the rest.Either that or disciplines them . A good father would have brouth them up in such a way that they would never hirt their siblings.Yet thats not the case

12

That isn’t what Genesis says. Not only is God’s creation good - but humanity is very good! What happened in the third chapter does not undo or negate what God already did. Aside from a few spots where an anthropomorphized God vents frustration over our rebellion and “repents of making something” - the whole of scriptures do not give us leave to think that sin has somehow re-made creation into a bad thing (a few strange and unscriptural YEC notions aside about that). If it had - that would be news to the psalmists, the prophets, and the later apostles who are all about redeeming a creation that must then be … worthwhile to redeem.

13

Doesnt the bible repeatedly reminsa that we are failure and our sin impacted this world etc etc?

If it didnt why its needed ti be redeemed?

14

Because of what we’ve done with our freedom. It isn’t because creation is bad. It’s because we do evil things.

15

as God knew the outcome already he would have known that moses would plead to him and that his response would illustrate his mercy to his people, so no, you can’t change his mind.

And no, if you do not repent you cannot accept forgiveness from someone that you claim not to have the authority to forgive, so we are our own stumbling block by denying Gods authority.over us.

16

Is Love competent in the transcendent - which is absolutely impossible to envisage except theoretically ethically unbound by our pathetic literalism, our being constipated on meaningless words - or not?

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Its always thpse who do the least bad that are suffering from the evil things the other people do.God gave us too much freedom if you ask me. He cant do that .
Just as a father has rules and limits God shouldve have done the same.Instead Gods turns a blind eye when these rules are beign broken . If this is freedom i dont want it.If this is how God reacts to his children blaming them even though they brothers hurt them he is no loving Father. I just thought there would be someone here to agree with me in my statements above or something.I guess im special in my opinions. Christians dont want to criticize their God and sympathize with a broken soul who was one of them.

If i was still a christian and someone raised these concerns i would have hugged them and say “I understand”.Because i really do . And i do think if God exists that he will let these people and others back home . He would save them no matter what. He wont leave them because he understands

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I dont know.Is it? Maybe

19

I do really hear you on that one, Nick. It’s easy for some to elevate freedom as the highest of all pursuits. But would they trade away at least part of that freedom to get a loaf of bread if they were starving? Or to put an end to terrible suffering or loneliness or loss that they or others are currently enduring? Anybody who gives a flippant answer to that - pretending that freedom is paramount over all, is somebody not currently suffering any of those things.

And conversely - anybody who gives a flippant answer that they would easily give up freedom for some security or bread, is probably not somebody who has suffered under real tyranny.

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20

Well you got really deep here. So what are we left to do? At least you understand my concenrs right and why do i feel this why.I think its justifiable.Thanks for understyanding

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21
  • Unraveling the Mindset of Victimhood
    • By Scott Barry Kaufman on June 29, 2020
    • Quick: Rate how much you agree with each of these items on a scale of 1 (“not me at all”) to 5 (“this is so me”):
      • It is important to me that people who hurt me acknowledge that an injustice has been done to me.
      • I think I am much more conscientious and moral in my relations with other people compared to their treatment of me.
      • When people who are close to me feel hurt by my actions, it is very important for me to clarify that justice is on my side.
      • It is very hard for me to stop thinking about the injustice others have done to me.
    • If you scored high (4 or 5) on all of these items, you may have what psychologists have identified as a “tendency for interpersonal victimhood.”
    • … some people tend to see themselves as perpetual victims. Rahav Gabay and her colleagues define this [tendency for interpersonal victimhood) as “an ongoing feeling that the self is a victim, which is generalized across many kinds of relationships. As a result, victimization becomes a central part of the individual’s identity.” Those who have a perpetual victimhood mindset tend to have an “external locus of control”; they believe that one’s life is entirely under the control of forces outside one’s self, such as fate, luck or the mercy of other people.

Suppose the post-death world–if there is one–is “Heaven”. [This happens to be my personal opinion. After all, if “God is everywhere” and “God is eternal”, then it would seem to me that after death, there is only Heaven, and that possibly, for some, Hell actually would be Heaven, but that Heaven would seem like Hell, because they don’t want to be there.]

And suppose that in the post-death world, there are only three possibilities:

  • A rare few get to immediately begin experiencing “Heavenly Bliss”;
  • The vast majority–“the Bent Ones”–go to Purgatory, i.e. a sort of “Divine Repair Shop”;
  • And the remainder–“the Broken Ones”–go to a “Divine Recycle Bin”, where the broken bits and pieces get sorted and recycled–if there’s anything left to recycle–i.e. dismantled, and "annihilated’ or melted and turned into something decorative or useful or both, like a tree, a flower or a rock.

IMO, a Just and Merciful God would be the only One that I’d trust to decide my destiny in the world to come. I don’t know about anybody else, but I’d be grateful if there was some part of me that could be turned into a decoration or a door-stop, and even more grateful if some part of me gets sent to the Repair Shop.

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22

It does seem that some people impose culpability onto God as some sort of criteria for His existence. If God…
(Please note these are not my own questions or demands)
God must be tangible so that I can be sure He exists
God should heal this, or stop that
Why doesn’t God stop Putin (or Hitler, or any other tyrant)
Why must my son/daughter/wife/husband/mother/father die? Surely God…
If God does not do this then… or God did not do this so…

What right has anyone to make these sorts of demands on God? Is God God or is He some sort of slave to humanity?

Where do we draw the line? Death? Disability? Bad luck? stubbed toe? Financial disaster?Putin? Corona Virus?

At what point do we “let God off the hook”?

Does God have to do anything for Him to exist? Does it matter if the things credited to Him (or against Him) are or not true? Would he still exist? Would He still be God?

And why should God suddenly be contained in a book (or compilation of books)?

John 21
25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Yet some people would dare to insist that the Bible contains all of God? (and His wisdom and answers)

God either does or does not exist, there cannot be any criteria or proof necessary.

There are many reasons why God cannot reveal Himself tangibly and most of the demands here or elsewhere would make that happen. That is what faith is for.

For those who have faith no proof is needed, For those without faith no proof is enough.

Richard

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23

Really? So if someone hurts you after you treateed them like they were your brother than means you have interpersonal victimhood?Pshychology is not a medical field anyway.Pshyciatry is.
You are trying to discredit a lot of people here with that statement

So people who hurt you are always right?Get oput of here man.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:]

Go ahead and forgive those who hurt you because its your fault i guess as your pshychologists say above. Ohhh and dont forget to pray to your god for the pr3ecious freedom he gave ypu to do absolute nothing while others out there dying ,are hungry etc etc .Nice heavenly father you got there man.Proud of him. If he was here still in his incarnate form i would have thrown hands with him trust me

Sorry for this amswer but you really brought this to yourtself.Your comment was irritating beyond my control .

24

Not that simple.Not everything in life is black and white.

25

We don’t know. That’s up for God to decide, and I would say the same thing for the religious as well. It isn’t in my place to say.