Does God know if it’s going to rain tomorrow?
If God grounds being, He does so without a trace; He creates nature, from eternity of course, as if He didn’t. @bilbo’s OP goes unanswered and I’ll build up my ramblings here from the top down.
I’ll posit God for a dollar, again that He grounds infinite being, from eternity of course (never, EVER forget eternity), and that therefore His sovereignty and our free will are meaningless. He - Love - is sovereign in that He grounds being and incarnates in solidarity with and apology to it. Nature does the rest, as it must by His instantiation of prevenient law which obviously includes self tuning. Prevenient of Him. Like truth, beauty, kindness; Love. Oh and there is the sublime of course. Heaven. Eternal, infinite heaven. How that could possibly work no one has the faintest idea.
Screeds of debate over ontological deterministic randomness and claims of God healing as if He didn’t, obliterating all His traces in creation, leaving a perfectly smooth statistical surface with no anomalies can be ignored. But don’t worry, I’ll continue rambling down from the top to the impossibility of squaring, relativizing QM circles which invalidates neither, in my tottering mediocrity.
Later.
Oooh what a rich seam!
Never quite sure where @gbrooks9 is coming from. Ultimately like @Jon_Garvey he seems to be on the line of false dichotomy and/or being very allegorical.
Human volition is on the false dichotomy, even polyotomy, but God certainly doesn’t touch evolution in any way unless He does and pretends not to: Lies.
They’re wrong unless God lies.
Allegorically. He doesn’t do any of those things, which He grounds. Sorry if that’s what you meant.
He is so right. His will is in instantiating the prevenient laws of nature (Gk. physis), incarnating in it and doing heaven. His will is also that we be nice, with no coercion either way.
I like it.
But what follows is the false dichotomy involving only God and/or chance, sovereignty and/or free will. Squaring those illusory circles. So it seems to me in my dotage.
I’m probably misreading @gbrooks9 and @Jon_Garvey and they completely agree with me.
Free will is meaningless and chance, indeterminacy, contingency is absolute, God is utterly subservient to that as He is to all the prevenient laws of nature. All. Which includes the laws that fix ‘fine tuning’. Just as He has no choice in being Love.
THIS! Is perfect. Hence my opening question. Because indeterminacy is absolute. God has no need to predict or plan anything at all, not that He could, never has, in all infinite past eternity of creation, natural and supernatural, never will, in all infinite future eternity. When He incarnates, it’s because the opportunity exists, as it always has somewhere. Always. And it will always end badly for Him, His incarnate will will ensure that. Intentional beings will always miss the impossible mark, will always abuse power. And He always has to confront that powerlessly.
But here, we’re back on the false dichotomy line. I’m not misreading. No ‘proper’ explanation is needed beyond indeterminacy. Unless I’m just soooooooo, old and dim I’m missing something. Apart from what’s been written for four years here and lacking for @Jon_Garvey for eight before. Which astounds me. That nobody has said what I am saying. In 12 years. Not since Kierkegaard. Well not round here.
Unplanned things happening to creatures randomly is in [any way related to] God’s wisdom, love or providence. That’s how they’re related. I mean really, this isn’t even sophomoric is it?
Later.
Where were we? Decorating. At my age I ask you. Nearly tea-time.
This intrigues me:
As it demonstrates two fallacies, from a brilliant physician I believe, a man who I infer so far heals by means of nuclear physics. I mean I’m a third rate old duffer, but I know that the statistically exact behaviour of the QM model of reality is because it is truly fully random, probabilistic and truly fully deterministic; it has rules like the Pauli exclusion principle which explains supernovas, not that there is any such nonsense as many worlds. The next fallacy, the poncey Latin ‘modus’ phrase for which eludes me, is built on that ignorance of determinism - laws - and that something is necessary to explain organisation beyond nature. I.e. the supernatural, the non-natural, the unnatural. What? What could it be? What need it be?
Tea time.
Roast root vegetable tagine. Gimme an FEB any time.
At this point the thread died and was resurrected.
@Bilbo asked '[i] Did God plan on Pharaoh freely choosing to refuse Moses’ request to free the Israelites? Or did God force Pharaoh to refuse?
[ii] I’ve been told that mutations happen at such a small level of reality that quantum events can play a significant role in their occurrence. Am I mistaken?’
[i] Oooh look, another false dichotomy.
[ii] Makes sense to me, I wonder what minds immeasurably superior to ours say?
Dear me, we’re only at the 8th of 96 comments on the dead thread. Tell you what, I’ll sign off on this one and pick up more as we go.