Each person has about 100 mutations (genetic defects) more than their parents. Allowing a generation time of 25 years the genetic load has increased by 10,000 defects over the last 2,500 years. The more genetic defects we carry the greater the chance that a conception will have a lethal combination that is not viable. Obviously if we are born we got a not lethal combination of defects, although many people have diseases related to genetics.
It is quite reasonable to believe that Adam and Eve were created with perfect genomes and would have had 100% successful pregnancies. Following the fall the corruption of the world would include genetic defects and the accumulating genetic load and high failure rate of conceptions today would be the result.
6 posts were merged into an existing topic: Adam and Eve had Perfect Genomes (The Genetic Entropy Argument)
This topic should be but is not a factor in the “abortion” issue. If God creates a new soul at conception then the majority of the “people” in Hell, Heaven, or wherever were never born. What kind of a god would create that situation? Does a person who was never born need a savior? How can a dead collection of undifferentiated cells be a “sinner?”
You raise some good questions, which is why I am not removing your post (for now), but if anyone wants to discuss this with Bill, please message him directly. Abortion is not a topic to be debated on this forum. My apologies.
Hi.
Here are a few thoughts.
1- God is very involved. Psalm 139, and Jeremiah 1.
It appears that he chooses, out of millions of sperm, which gets access to the egg. Just because we cannot identify any specific patterns, does not mean he’s not.
2- Genesis 3.
Man kicked God to the curb, according to Genesis 3. We see that man would die, and indeed does die. According to Romans 1, there are those who simply do not want anything to do with God, and so God leaves them be.
3- Hosea 4:6.
This one leaves me reeling. God’s people perish for a lack of knowledge. And because the priests ignore the knowledge of God, God will forget their children.
I.e., people who ignore God will be ignored by God.
4- All of this leads to one very fundamental idea…
Ecclesiastes 9:1-2.
All things come to all alike. Those who pray, offer sacrifices, honor God, vow to God, the same thing that happens to them, happens to the wicked, and ungodly-- those who ignore God, those who refuse, and reject God.
What if the issue here is that God is intimately involved, but because we’re so incredibly finite, and limited, we are not able to recognize the infinitude, and unlimited nature/perspective of God. Isaiah 55.
As for my background. 41 years following Jesus. An AS in Math, and undergraduate studies in physics. I am also a stage 4 metastatic melanoma survivor, with 6 surgeries, 4 years of a clinical drug trial- chemo. 5 weeks of radiation, over 60 MRI’s of the brain, 60+ whole torso CT scans, 13-14 whole body PET scans.
Simply put, we live in a fallen world. Humans opened the door to giving God the boot, resulting in his giving us exactly what we want. Sadly, the consequences are far more convoluted, and complicatedly painful than is easily explained.
We have however brought this all on ourselves, because of our sin.
Now… for a couple of classic meme’s…
The issue is not “why hasn’t God stopped evil, pain, etc… Rather, why would God let us live, when we violate his laws with impunity, and he plainly stated— in the day you eat thereof, dying, you shall die.” Genesis 2.
I don’t think this is an easy issue by any stretch of the idea.
I do however think it’s quite simple.
God gave us life. We blew God off, so he gave us what we wanted. Now we’re griping because life is so filled with heartache, grief, pain, misery, etc…, and we’re looking for someone— anyone except for ourselves— to blame, and God is the easiest one.
Thankfully, God does not leave us to our own devices. He gave his own son, allowed him to be miserably treated, manhandled, viciously and brutally murdered.
THere was a man in John 9 who was born blind. Indeed a miserable thing. The disciples asked who’d sinned that he was born blind— parents, or the child…?
Jesus said neither- but so that God may be glorified.
Huh? That’s a new one. How can God be glorified? Apparently by Jesus healing him, and giving him his sight back!
Here’s another. Some people came to Jesus and complained about a really gruesome, and heinous act against the Jewish religious practices of animal sacrifices.
Jesus responded— are you bothered that Pilate had some men killed, and then mingled their blood with sacrifices?
He then responds— No… I tell you that unless you repent, you too will perish.
Then he mentions a recent earthquake, where a tower fell on some people and they were killed. Again, he said— I tell you that unless you repent, you too will perish!
Now… think about these two events. They’re incredibly random, and seemingly vicious-- in the case of the first event.
What surprises me is Jesus’ response— unless you repent, you too will perish.
It strikes me that he’s acknowledging the randomness of life, and saying that there are simply some things we have no control over, but those things we do have control over, we must deal with! There’s no escaping death, but we can escape judgment for our sin.
So… as stated… some thoughts. I’m older now, and have experienced a lot in life. Some quite heinous, some quite nice. God however has been faithful to me through it all.
Not to mention ectopic pregnancies where the fertilization happens outside the uterus.
(Any of you remember the Simpsons episode when the family needed money and Homer suggested that Marge be a surrogate mother? She refused to consider it. He replied that they were a team: it’s uter-us, not uter-you.)
How about the laryngeal nerve and the claims that only evolution can explain the circuitous route it takes in species, including the giraffe?
This is one of those things where I accept the conclusion that Job made about how there were things that he wasn’t capable of understanding.
Really? How do you know God is choosing a particular sperm cell? And why release so many at once? Does the same hold true for eggs?
If I’ve learned anything it’s that God likes fireworks (how can you explain the universal human fondness of fireworks) so he put some at the moment of fertilization:
And how do you @beaglelady explain how the other sperm can’t get in and this one just comes right in out of nowhere:
Pevaquark note: I mean the second part in jest as it is known why earlier sperm do not penetrate the outer membrane and the slow/more directionally challenged have an easier time slipping in after the hard work’s been done!
@Steve_Buckley @beaglelady–I like your Anasara sign, Mr Buckley! (Nazarene; I grew up in Islamic West Africa and we Christians are called that there, too).
But if God chooses the sperm, and at least 50% of zygotes (fertilized eggs) don’t implant, where then does the choosing occur? Good discussion.
Thanks.
Hi @beaglelady .
Had you not clipped what I’d posted, and then actually read the references, you’d already know the answer to your question.
Simply put, the bible explicitly teaches that God is aware of everything that occurs, all the way down to the origin of our thoughts. Psalm 139.
It also says that God is Sovereign. This means he oversees all activities, and they all go according to his plans. Isaiah 40-49.
Then, in the new testament it teaches that God has foreordained those who follow him to conformed to the image/likeness of Jesus. Ephesians 1, and Romans 8.
Thus, it seems quite clear to me that God chooses. As for why there are so many sperm if that’s the case… I’ll refer back to my statement in my initial post.
We live in a fallen world, where there are natural consequences for sin/evil/bad/wrong/selfishness.
Perhaps not a pleasant set of ideas, but based on historical fact.
Sala’am @Randy.
(I selected the Nasrani as a means of solidarity with those Jesus followers who suffer for his name sake in the Islamic countries)
The choosing occurs in a realm far above and beyond ours. Please read Isaiah 55.
I don’t claim to understand it.
We’ve been given a limited amount of information, and it’s slowly been percolating in my mind over the decades.
Also, please read Psalm 90.
I doubt God planned for 11-year-old Jaycee Dugard to be kidnapped, raped, and impregnated twice by her perverted adult kidnapper. Sorry, but I just don’t. She didn’t escape until she was 29! And don’t play the “mysterious ways of God” card on me because it’s not going to work. Her story is told in an autobiography called, appropriately, “A Stolen Life.”
God gave this wiggler the password.
SmartSperm™ All rights reserved.
Psalm 139 also says pretty plainly that the author was made in secret and sewn together in the depths of the earth.
Mr Buckley, Alaikum salamu! Our words were related to Arabic, but actually Hausa–so the endings were often different.
We also get Voice of the Martyrs and did a Bible study in Sunday School recently with that theme. I’ll get back to you after some work. God bless.
The interesting thing is that Muslims are very fatalistic and believe God also ordains everything–“ba mai yi sai Allah” is a common phrase people write on the back of bush taxis (“no one does anything except God,” literally, though it may mean more “without God.” So, we have a lot in common when we use the OT to talk with them.
Randy
And herein lies the problem…
You doubt.
You clearly believe you know better, but are not demonstrating you understand much.
Well, since you’re clearly in the know, and no one knows as much as you do, I guess you’re right, and no one has any other perspective which could possibly be accurate.
Oh, since you used the phrase, I didn’t say anything about the mysterious ways of God. That’s all you.
But also, I have to wonder…
What is it that bothers you so much?
Here’s something for you…
Jesus said that the thief comes only steal, kill, and destroy, but I have come that you might have life, and that more abundantly. John 10.
Here’s something else for you.
I’m a stage 4 metastatic malignant melanoma survivor.
I’ve lived with my cancer since 1987. That’s 31 years now.
According to the melanoma statistics, most people who get melanoma die within 1-2 years.
I was misdiagnosed in 1990, correctly diagnosed in 1997, and spent the next 7 years having 6 surgeries, 5 weeks of radiation therapy, 4 years of chemo, over 60 MRI’s of the brain, over 60 full-torso CT scans, 13-14 whole body PET scans, and various misc. diagnostics.
I then also had the opportunity throughout all that to attend college, and study math, and afterwards, I started a new career, and got a whole new life.
How did I survive all this, when copious friends, and family members died of various cancers, illnesses, diseases over the decades.
For all the doubts, for all the tens of millions of questions that CAN be asked, in the end, there’s only one thing which matters— how will we respond to the gospel of Jesus?
As I said, with regards to Jesus’ words on the cruelties, and viciousness of life—
Unless you repent, you too will perish.
Yeah, I don’t think fatalism is the solution here.
God created us with curiosity, and the faculty to learn to solve increasingly complex problems.
I also don’t think ordain is the correct term, when it comes to God’s Sovereignty, and foreordinantion of human beings.
In fact, there are only one group of people on earth whom the bible says are predestined, or fore-ordained.
It’s Jesus followers. Romans 8:29, and Ephesians 1: 11.
Moreover, the only thing we are predestined, or fore-ordained to is to be conformed to the image/likeness of Jesus.
No one else is treated in this manner.
You won’t find anyone else who is predestined, for anything, or anywhere, else.
Education, learning, knowledge, and understanding are quite important. However, wisdom is even more important.
You too.
Keep following Jesus. Please read 2 Peter 1:2-13, Titus 2:11-14, Isaiah 30:15, and chapter 54. Specifically vss 12-17.
So, Mr Buckley, there’s a very good question: do we believe that God ordains evil? In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with asking this question. I would shrink more from calling God the doer of evil than from worrying about doubt! “You doubt because you love truth.” It’s Ok to ask why and how God might be God and there still be evil, isn’t it?. At any rate, we must fight it with all our might–and I know that you think of what happened to Ms Dugard as heinous.
God created us with wonderful minds. It would be a double faced God that did not want us to ask questions.
Psalm 103, “As a father has compassion on His children, so the Lord has compassion on those who fear him; for He knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust.:”
Praise be to God for that! My parents were full of Christ’s mercy and compassion. I only hope that I can point my children to His true picture, Christ, as well as they did it to me.
Thanks for your probing words.
It’s a theodicy–a difficult question! God bless.
Well, do you BELIEVE that God planned for the little girl Jaycee to be raped repeatedly and impregnated?
I think this is why the topic of God’s sovereignty is so hard to wrap our heads around, because we don’t always know the extent to which he micromanages (or does not) every little detail in the world. Different prooftexts can give us very different answers. But @beaglelady has a point, because if we subscribe to the extreme end of the “God micromanages everything” view, it sounds an awful lot like we’re saying that God ordains evil, even the most vile and depraved crimes.