Prayer - Does It Work? How Can We Know?

No, I don’t see God as a vending machine at all. He doesn’t just dispense whatever people want (junk food) whenever they want it.

And I don’t know about you, but the only time I ever hear about “moving mountains” is as a metaphor. What practical value does literally transplanting a mountain into the sea have (as far as the kingdom of God goes)? Jesus at other times references plucking out your own eye, and a camel passing through the eye of a needle. Attempting to discern hyperbole, as well as between literal and metaphorical speech, is not verbal acrobatics.

Well, I never hear preachers say during the altar call that that if you believe you may not get saved. No, typically it’s believe and you will receive salvation. Today. Right this moment, etc.

Yes, I agree that moving a mountain is a metaphor. A metaphor for impossible things, yes? And Jesus wasn’t forced to make this promise. He knew how the people will interpret it and yet, chose to go with it. But at the end, it’s a false promise because nothing is possible for a believer that is not possible for an unbeliever of similar means.

Yes – Jesus saves those who believe and follow him. I don’t believe that is hyperbole or metaphorical speech.

Do you think Jesus assumed that his immediate listeners wouldn’t have been able to recognize hyperbole or metaphor? Also, Jesus’ promises tend to have to do with building his kingdom on earth, which is not something unbelievers are concerned with, so the comparison seems like apples and oranges to me.

I understand what you are saying. You may not know this, but I was a devout Christian until my late 20s. And I still have a Christian family and attend the church (baptist). I know that prayer doesn’t work. And the times where it does is pure coincidence. God will never do God powered deeds. For instance, say you are a devout Christian and a missionary. How do you go to the mission field, a different country? You cannot pray for God to teleport you. Even though the work is directly concerned with building his kingdom. But no, the missionary must earn or ask for finances, buy a plane ticket and travel the same way a nonbeliever would travel.

Well, I have no desire to argue with you, especially since your mind is already made up. I think whether or not prayer “works” mostly depends on what we expect from it, which may vary depending on which Christian you talk to. I have never heard anyone expect God to teleport them anywhere. Yes, you will hear Christians say something is an “answer to prayer” when on the surface it appears to be purely material. In that sense, trying to scientifically evaluate the efficacy of prayer is probably not going to show much. But I do believe its purpose goes beyond just that.

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Indeed we do wish to get from one place to another. And God said “behold, … I give you legs!” And they are marvelous indeed, working over a great variety of often very uneven terrain, and taking us at a whim just about anywhere we fancy! Generally we all (believers and unbelievers alike) make use of this convenient locomotion to portage ourselves wherever we would like to go - in just the way God intended for us to get places. In this universe anyway.

Well, I appreciate the conversation. I just wanted to reflect that the explanations work for fellow Christians, but they don’t work for people who are not committed to the inerrancy. Here is another way that I looked at it. Imagine a fellow man made the same promises that Jesus is recorded as saying. Verbatim. Pray to me (lets say Johnny is making a promise, and he is being serious) and you will receive whatever you ask in prayer. How long should it take me, or an average person, to determine that Johnny is making a mistake or is deceived somehow?

When I was a Baptist, it was easy to reconcile (among Baptists) the contradiction between James 2 and Romans 4 (salvation by works and salvation by faith, apart from works). But those explanations would be laughable to a Catholic who is not committed to a faith apart from works salvation.

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That makes so much more sense. “Prayer” along with “sacred”, “soul”, “heaven” and “hell” I find quite easy to make sense of until they become tightly defined in some forced, doctrinal way.

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Yes, you would be right in concluding that this guy is probably wrong. You would only be doing your due diligence in testing what another person says, rather than outright believing something that sounds too good to be true. And I hope I would do the same. The difference for me comes from who I believe Jesus to be (not just a fellow human), and also in trying to read his words in context.

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The apostles, the chosen 13 , did do greater works than him. However, this is the issue. They are all dead and the spirituals gifts have ceased with their dying. They don’t exist anymore. Scripture lines that out pretty clearly, just like genesis is hyperbolic, despite the modern popular understanding.

Here is the other thing. You can’t actually prove that prayer does not work. You can’t prove whether or not the future was altered , and you can’t prove if it helps the believer or not by having mantras of truth and righteousness that helps them move towards the goals they want.

I agree. Often people don’t have a very good grasp on theology. It’s a 4000+ tell that spans multiple cultures , nations and require a lot of mediation and studying. No one just reads it like 10 times and suddenly have this giant grasp on the biblical patterns. Just like with science, biblical hermeneutics is a skill that requires passion and diligence to tease out.

What does not work is isolating a verse out of its context. Part of that context is not just the immediate verses, or even the book, but the entirety of scripture.

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Sir,

If you want to come across as making a legitimate or objective critique, may I recommend you deal with all of Jesus’s teachings and words about prayer and ajs ing him for things, not just those that you perceive establish this supposed difficulty… i.e., consider all his actions, words, and teachings regarding prayer, or how he responded when people asked him for something, to give context to how the original hearers (not to mention us readers) would have understood all his teachings on the topic in context as a whole,

I am terribly critical of any Christian that “cherry picks” the verses they want in order to support some favored position, while conveniently ignoring those other passages that would qualify, clarify, or otherwise inform their chosen favorite passages. Similarly, we will be extremely dubious of the intent or motive of any skeptic who similarly cherry picks only those verses that appear to support a purported difficulty, while conveniently ignoring any and all other words of Jesus that would further clarify, qualify, or otherwise bring context to his whole teaching or perspective on some topic.

If you are genuinely interested in what Jesus taught about prayer, or about whether he intended to communicate that he would - without qualification or limit whatsoever - give anyone absolutely anything they ask for without any limit, you may want to add to your larger consideration some of his words, teachings, or examples from the scriptures that could inform, qualify or clarify those you prefer to cherry pick…

“when you pray, say… ‘your will be done.’”

“not my will, but yours be done.”

“if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.”

Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.” And he said to them, “What do you want me to do for you?” And they said to him, “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.” … “to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant.”

And the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and to test him they asked him to show them a sign from heaven… An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” So he left them and departed.

And when his disciples James and John saw it, they said, “Lord, do you want us to tell fire to come down from heaven and consume them?” But he turned and rebuked them.

Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Tell her then to help me.” But the Lord answered her, “Martha, Martha, you are anxious and troubled about many things, but one thing is necessary. Mary has chosen the good portion, which will not be taken away from her.”

the chief priests and the scribes with the elders came up and said to him, “Tell us by what authority you do these things, or who it is that gave you this authority.”… And Jesus said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.”

Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.” But he said to him, “Man, who made me a judge or arbitrator over you?”

As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him. Jesus did not let him, but said, “Go home to your family and tell them how much the Lord has done for you…"

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That is not all it is.

 

That is not all it is. :slightly_smiling_face: It is also (or should be) thanksgiving and praise.

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God is a good Father. My experience hasn’t been as full as George Müller’s* by a long shot (and he is certainly someone we could desire to emulate!), but also certainly there have been moments. Your quote reminds me of a remarkable ‘co-instance’ in answer to a prayer: Request and Articulate Reply. I cite that not to point to me but to a prayer-answering God.

 


*@SuperBigV – Did you read any of or about George Müller, above? You and he would differ more than a little as to whether or not God answers prayer, or that it is nothing more than just therapy, @Klax.

All of this is fine as good. As I was saying previously, these are the only verses Christians (except for hard Calvinists) latch on to, with one big exception (typically). Christians claim that whenever a nonbeliever prays to receive salvation, they always get it. Now, why is it that they don’t say… save me IF it’s your will? Why don’t they tell the newly converted that salvation ultimately depends on Gods will for them? They assume it’s Gods will to save them because there are passages showing that salvation depends on faith in Christ.

And yet, Matthew 21:21 is also a promise, but we are supposed to ignore it? I get it. It was probably Jesus using a hyperbole to indicate that prayer won’t work.

Btw, I’m of the opinion that the Gospels were edited and re-edited several times. Marks gospel was likely the first one. And Mark doesn’t offer the loopholes. A promise has been made.

And there I was thinking it was an affirmation of my faith in old earth geology and erosive processes over deep time.

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I heard about Mueller and the answered prayers but, again, these are the prayers that anyone could answer and there is no falsifiability. Let’s say that I claim that I will answer prayers. Someone prays for healing and then goes to the doctor and takes the medication. And then they are healed. Am I a miracle worker? Or did I not contribute anything and simply took credit for the medical system working as it does?

You heard about Müller. Read just a few of pages of his autobiography (through at least the starting of an Orphan House). Then you can remain in honest denial.

You have forgotten that we are not talking about science.

I have not forgotten that I’m striving at the truth. Without falsifiability everyone who claims to answer prayers will be the prayer answerer.