Well stated!
And I think you were being plenty charitable in your own turn by even allowing the descriptor: “dubious”.
A better way to phrase this is:
The trick is to identify which individual freedoms enhance our collective freedom and which individual freedoms lead to collective loss of freedom.
Economists and sociologists speak of the tragedy of the commons, which refers to the fact that individual decisions which seem rational and uncontroversial can collectively lead to tragedy. If I let my sheep munch the grass in a park, it seems like no big deal. The little that is eaten will grow back, right? But if every herd of sheep eats the grass in the park, the grass disappears. And then no one’s sheep can eat any more grass. That is the the tragedy of the commons.
Which side of the road to drive on and how fast people drive in neighborhoods are good examples of the tragedy of the commons at work.
Other good examples are wearing masks during a pandemic and getting a COVID vaccine. It might seem to be my concern as to whether I should wear a mask or get vaccinated. If it’s my concern, then I have the liberty to enjoy the commons by breathing the indoor air maskless and going unvaccinated, right? But if enough people decide to avail themselves of the commons in that fashion, tragedy can ensue. Indeed, we have already experienced 500,000+ tragedies in the USA alone from the decisions to enjoy indoor, maskless communal gatherings during the pandemic.
Best,
Chris
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My wife has been using that analogy since earlier last year. Would antimaskers (and antivaxxers) please drive on the left. ←Tongue firmly in cheek, and if we could discount the danger to those in oncoming traffic. 
In reading and interacting with some folks on the “freedom,” anti-mask side, it sometimes seems that they think a few deaths here and there are necessary sacrifices for freedom (they always underestimate the deaths, as John Macarthur did, who put it at two thousandths of a percent. Interestingly, his university is strongly YEC).
I don’t know how to reason with people who think this way.
John MacArthur made a simple math mistake: He confused two thousandths with two thousandths of a percent. Two thousandths is in the right ballpark; two thousandths of a percent is off by two orders of magnitude.
Best,
Chris
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You’re right. Thanks.
Here’s from Up to Date
The case fatality rate only indicates the mortality rate among documented cases. Since many severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infections are asymptomatic, the infection fatality rate (ie, the estimated mortality rate among all individuals with infection) is considerably lower and has been estimated by some analyses to be between 0.5 and 1 percent [51-53].
Thanks for the info, Randy!
I was thinking in terms of total population of the USA, so deaths divided by population would be 500,000 / 320,000,000 = 0.00156, which is fairly close to two-thousandths. As a percentage of cases, though, 0.002 is much lower than the actual mortality rate.
Chris
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Thanks. Your conversation helped me.
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Question. I am not opposed to vaccines. I do have concerns at the possible long term side effects. Why is it looked down on for people to ask these questions? It is not FDA approved and the trials are still going on until 2023.
Also- I have gene mutation MTHFR, and I am prone to blood clots. I know clots have been linked to one of the vaccines, so I am leery of taking a vaccine that could have adverse side effects due to this gene mutation.
I am tired of being labeled as uncaring because I have these questions. My husband is a scientist, and I thought the whole premise behind science was to ask questions. I ask these questions and I am immediately labeled as anti-vaccine, anti- science and selfish. That is so frustrating. I think these questions would be welcomed. I hope to have some answers here…
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Welcome to the Forum, Sarah! I hope that you can find some kind encouragement here.
It does look like the clots may be connected to the AstraZeneca vaccine. I do not know where you are located, but it looks like the US does not expect to receive this brand (if that’s any consolation?). With your condition, I think it would be safe to assume you may fall into the category of people that we all need to protect by all getting vaccinated to protect you who can’t!
As far as long-term side effects, I, too, am looking forward to more information to come out regarding these, as I think that is a major factor for many people. However, here is a summary of initial conclusions from CHOP that may be useful: Feature Article: Long-term Side Effects of COVID-19 Vaccine? What We Know. | Children's Hospital of Philadelphia
It appears that most long-term side effects will be evident within the span of a couple of months, and the trials have gone on long enough by now to know what those risks look like.
What kind of long-term side effects are you most worried about? For me, the long-term side effects of COVID (permanently damaged lungs/other organs) were far too concerning to me to risk contracting it.
Has your spouse been helpful or encouraging to you? Wishing you the best! I think there’s nothing wrong in asking questions, as long as we don’t come to bad conclusions through false information! (ie the unfounded rumor about infertility, etc.)
Welcome, Sarah! Ultimately, vaccine side effects are considered in the overall risk to benefit ratio. In your case, I would be far more concerned about the huge risk of blood clots resulting in pulmonary emboli, strokes and heart attacks that are associated with COVID infection. I think if you consider the relative risks, you will find the balance is overwhelming in support of vaccination. You make a good point in that that aspect of vaccination is not explained well enough and is often not given clearly as background information,
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From sociologist Samuel Perry:
Knowing how vaccines work correlates with white evangelicals getting vaccinated. Share those educational videos, people. 
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Okay. Infertility is not an issue for me (I am done having kids), but I do wonder why we have seen a rise in infertility issues among younger people. Is it diet, gmo, preexisting conditions, over active immune systems, environmental etc?? Long term effects could be a number of things. I know in the past things deemed safe and effective proved to be dangerous. Deet, agent orange, thalidomide Etc. Only after time did we realize that nope those weren’t great. Because the mRNA (from my knowledge) is new and we have not done long term testing, it makes me hesitant to run out and get a shot. I am not opposed, but I am concerned. And with my gene mutation of mthfr that predisposes me to blood clots, is a concern. I know statistically, I would more than likely be fine, but when there is a risk, I am wanting full informed consent. I do not do well when people just say “get the shot”.
That seems a healthy attitude, and if you follow that path, you can look at the data and balance the relative risks. Last I looked, the incidence of thrombotic stroke with the vaccine was about 1 in every million administered. That may well be real as the inflammatory response may well stimulate clotting, but is also so low it could be coincidence. The infection also causes an inflammatory response, and produces mRNA, and has a high incidence of clotting events. The question is what is the relative risk. I think the risk of death due to Covid was around 1,500 per million. I do not know what the risk of survival with long term disability is, but probably higher. If the risk of getting Covid falls, primarily due to the efforts of those who get vaccinated, of course the overall risk will go down.
Look at the numbers, and the numbers above are just from memory and may be off, so do the research.
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I think we’re enough months (and millions of fully vaccinated people) in by now, that if the vaccine had any bad effect on fertility - it would have been huge news by now. Not that there was ever any significant risk of this. I do remember reading at one point that even among the testing trials there were some who got pregnant after being vaccinated. If there are infertility problems today (which I wouldn’t be surprised to hear) … I predict that statistics will show that problem as having emerged already well before the pandemic was on the scene. But I’ll leave that for others to verify if interested, as I’m not worried about it either. I would be more worried about full-on COVID itself causing issues than the thing that will help keep you from getting it (or suffering seriously from it). I think I’ve also heard that certain impaired male performance can be one negative result of getting the real thing. So … [guys] how’s that for a comeback to your uncle at the table who’s worried about vaccine side effects? Tell him you’re glad he’s willing to be the guinea pig for you on how that all goes down with real COVID while you meanwhile just played it safe and got the vaccine.
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That is always a very good response about any vaccine nowadays! There are some awful diseases out there.
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As of mid-April, the European Medicines Agency estimated the risk of cerebral venous thrombosis from the AstraZeneca vaccine to be 5 per million. The risk from being infected with the virus itself is indeed much higher. And the mRNA vaccines don’t seem to carry this risk.
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No doubt true of overall stroke. My memory was specifically of venous sinus thrombosis from the J&J vaccine. From the CDC:
“As of April 12, more than 6.8 million doses of the Johnson & Johnson (Janssen ) vaccine have been administered in the U.S. CDC and FDA are reviewing data involving six reported U.S. cases of a rare and severe type of blood clot in individuals after receiving the J&J vaccine.”
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The EMA strokes were about three-quarters CVST, if I’m understanding the situation correctly. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-04-23/06-COVID-Oliver-508.pdf lays out the various kinds of evidence. My impression is that European monitoring systems are more trustworthy that the US’s systems, but that’s based on hearsay.
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Great information. I can’t make out what the rate after vaccination is compared to the baseline unvaccinated rate of CVST. It looks like the unvaccinated presumably non-Covid associated baseline rate on slide 23 was actually higher than the vaccinated incidence, but that can’t be right. Guess I need to look more closely.
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