There is objective evidence to be considered. ; - )
Good one:
I always slightly distrust references from Job unless I know who the speaker is. In this instance, it’s Eliphaz, whose words are not to implicitly be trusted, and this is a good case in point – he is talking about mere temporal peace and worldly good, neither of which are lasting.
An interesting and complementary little providence to the previous reflection – another quote from Job, and this time Job speaking. It also speaks to Christians about theodicy:
And it’s reminiscent of Laura Story’s song, Blessings:
Necessary to understand the maturity of a thought, it’s strength.
In case if a thought is purposed for the humankind, inevitably it should go for the trial for vast judgement.
New important things mostly go through bitterness of gaining wisdom from one’s lifetime experience.
Epochs are changing not over a few decades.
“It’s a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don’t keep your feet, there’s no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
However you are cautious, be ready for unexpected turbulence to whirl you away from planned path and take responsibility for your next steps.
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One of the great advantages of a forum like this over a live discussion is that if your attention wanders or need draws you away, unlike the live discussion where you just miss out, on a forum you can stumble upon it weeks later between first and second sleep. Then, though you feel foolish to admit the lapse in attention you at least have the opportunity to hear what was missed and express your admiration. Thanks for sharing this Kendel.
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I would like to add. Pithy quotes (really good ones) make my mind inspired and refreshed. I seek for them after hard days to get back to a good mood.
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Look forward to sharing and discussing more interesting quotes with you. I hope you find enough of interest to stick around a while. Good to know we can count on early alerts about the new telescope from you though Beaglelady was the one who brought it to my attention. Science is regularly interesting but I’m at a big questions phase of life and there are great resources here for that as well.
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Yes, I agree. And thanks for reading.
I have noticed that I keep finding myself bogged down, trying to grasp some of the seemingly endless joust-type “debates” and not enjoying them at all, and not learning much. Well, except how patient some of the long-term regulars are. I need to remind myself to follow up more on the threads devoted to quotes, photos, books and the like.
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In order to be prepared to hope in what does not deceive, we must first lose hope in everything that deceives.
Georges Bernanos (in Reason for Being by Jacques Ellul)
Everything in the world can deceive. This is not our home.
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Truth, of course, must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for we have made fiction to suit ourselves.
–G. K. Chesterton.
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“‘There are all kinds of courage,’ said Dumbledore, smiling. ‘It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends.’”
–J K Rowling (we are reading the Harry Potter series as a family in the evenings now).
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I just finished reading Francis Collins’s “The Language of God.” [Yeah. Probably a big late.] I feel quite empowered to read that Augustine shared my view:
But is Genesis in this category? Unquestionably the language is poetic. Does it exhibit poetic license? (There will be much more to say about this in a later chapter.) This is not just a modern-day question; throughout history debates have raged between literalists and nonliteralists. Saint Augustine, probably one of the greatest of all religious intellects, was particularly aware of the risks of turning biblical texts into precise scientific treatises, and wrote, with specific reference to Genesis: “In matters that are so obscure and far beyond our vision, we find in Holy Scripture passages which can be interpreted in very different ways without prejudice to the faith we have received. In such cases, we should not rush in headlong and so firmly take our stand on one side that, if further progress in the search for truth justly undermines this position, we too fall with it.”
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And a final [extensive] one from Francis Collins’ The Language of God:
“Thus, by any reasonable standard, Young Earth Creationism has reached a point of intellectual bankruptcy, both in its science and in its theology. Its persistence is thus one of the great puzzles and great tragedies of our time. By attacking the fundamentals of virtually every branch of science, it widens the chasm between the scientific and spiritual worldviews, just at a time where a pathway toward harmony is desperately needed. By sending a message to young people that science is dangerous, and that pursuing science may well mean rejecting religious faith, Young Earth Creationism may be depriving science of some of its most promising future talents.
But it is not science that suffers most here. Young Earth Creationism does even more damage to faith, by demanding that belief in God requires assent to fundamentally flawed claims about the natural world. Young people brought up in homes and churches that insist on Creationism sooner or later encounter the overwhelming scientific evidence in favor of an ancient universe and the relatedness of all living things through the process of evolution and natural selection. What a terrible and unnecessary choice they then face! To adhere to the faith of their childhood, they are required to reject a broad and rigorous body of scientific data, effectively committing intellectual suicide. Presented with no other alternative than Creationism, is it any wonder that many of these young people turn away from faith, concluding that they simply cannot believe in a God who would ask them to reject what science has so compellingly taught us about the natural world?
Let me conclude this brief chapter, therefore, with a loving entreaty to the evangelical Christian church, a body that I consider myself a part of, and that has done so much good in so many other ways to spread the good news of God’s love and grace. As believers, you are right to hold fast to the concept of God as Creator; you are right to hold fast to the truths of the Bible; you are right to hold fast to the conclusion that science offers no answers to the most pressing questions of human existence; and you are right to hold fast to the certainty that the claims of atheistic materialism must be steadfastly resisted. But those battles cannot be won by attaching your position to a flawed foundation. To continue to do so offers the opportunity for the opponents of faith (and there are many) to win a long series of easy victories.
Benjamin Warfield, a conservative Protestant theologian in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, was well aware of the need for believers to stand firm in the eternal truths of their faith, despite great social and scientific upheavals. Yet he saw also the need to celebrate discoveries about the natural world that God created. Warfield wrote these remarkable words, which could well be embraced by the church today:
We must not, then, as Christians, assume an attitude of antagonism toward the truths of reason, or the truths of philosophy, or the truths of science, or the truths of history, or the truths of criticism. As children of the light, we must be careful to keep ourselves open to every ray of light. Let us, then, cultivate an attitude of courage as over against the investigations of the day. None should be more zealous in them than we. None should be more quick to discern truth in every field, more hospitable to receive it, more loyal to follow it, whithersoever it leads.”
It was hard to decide what to trim. Since I’m not paying for a telegram, I just put the whole section in. I wish I could communicate this message right to the hearts of so many of my friends, acquaintances, family members and fellow christians.
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From his lips to my brother’s ears. Sad to see anyone sacrifice so much for the sake of an ill considered, greatly over emphasized theological interpretation. Anyone with any real faith should let in all the light, welcome all the truth.
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Yep. Including objective evidence.
Oh Dumbledore gets all the best lines! I’m somewhat of a Harry Potter (books) superfan 
Have you read them before?
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Yes! My wife and I have read them all through twice together. She’s able to complete my sentences (she read them on her own before) when I’m reading them aloud. This time, we’re doing it with the kids. We were all cracking up at Rowling’s Ron last night, refusing to wear his frilly dress gown: “I’ll go starkers first!”- Mrs Weasley: “Go right ahead! And Harry, be sure to get a photo! I need something to make me laugh!”
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Mark, do you have a specific brother in mind, or “brothers” in general?
Yes, you are right. From my perspective as a Christian, it’s horrific to see this little group of extremists behaving as the gate-keepers of salvation, and I have such deep concern for the people, particularly young people, whose faith this movement will utterly destroy. This stuff is rampant in churches, where we claim “that who ever believes in Jesus will not die but have everlasting life.” And then we have AIG standing there, demanding Anti-Evolutionist YEC passports with a Baramin Visa.
My oldest daughter is a biology major in her second year of college. I don’t want to think about the destruction, if we had just left the AIG Sunday school curriculum to do its work on her, forcing her to make an unnecessary choice between faith or real science.
My youngest is still in middle school and interested in psychology right now. I don’t think there’s much room in her life for these false, destructive dichotomies, either.
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My younger brother who used to enjoy a little light hearted discussion about religion had no desire to discuss BioLogos when I brought up what a great thing they are doing here. He has always been happy to tell any and all why JWs and Mormons (and who knows what other denominations) are not really Christians. Apparently Christianity without the ritual sacrifice of one’s intelligence isn’t real enough either.
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