Pithy quotes from our current reading which give us pause to reflect

Good for your coach. I think.

It becomes tiresome, though, to be around people, ususally young people, who can’t turn it off. There never seems to be a time, when one can just have a discussion. Everything must be about competiton.

One of my oldest’s classmates is like this, No issue seems too inconsequential for a display of superior knowledge and argumentation. The girl is going into teaching. I pity her future students, coworker and bosses.

Yes, there are times when a discussion does require careful research and understanding – we see many here-- but rarely in the context of debate. Because looking for what is true is not a competition sport.

1 Like

This is probably why God so often chooses the base things in the world to confound the wisdom of the world

This is an accusation, not a case. If you want to start a discussion thread, where you can review the details of the discussion in context, go ahead.

Otherwise, drop it.

Leave me alone.

Ignore me.

(Relevant to the above):

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
Matthew 7:13

“I’m so glad I live in a world where there are Octobers.”

–Anne of Green Gables (LM Montgomery)

3 Likes

That is something I agree with completely. Fall is my favorite time of year.

1 Like

I would see the damage as coming from the assumption that the truth is something that can be assembled from a cherry picked sample of facts which seem most likely to be accepted by judges. To make any progress toward truth I have found it necessary to hold a space free of any hard and fast beliefs where the truth can land in me. No points would be awarded but at least I won’t have loaded onto some other genuinely searching soul the distraction of my argument.

The important truths are seen all at once or not at all. Those who hold tightly to what strike them as obvious before they even begin to look will go away empty handed except for what they started with.

1 Like

(Relevant to the above):

“But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.”
Matthew 7:26

I think this distinction makes sense. We may be able to say many true things (facts) without actually comprehending or recognizing bigger truths, or truth. The things that help us live lives that are good are not usually the kind of thing one just finds in a reference book.

Being open to learning means that one IS open to change. Change doesn’t happen by way of entrenchment.

Maybe? Sometimes? Often? Usually? Not sure about always or never. I’m not as severe as Kierkegaard makes himself out to be with all his "either-or"s.

2 Likes

If I googled that question I wouldn’t expect a definite answer. Same goes for AI bots though their presentation is apt to be more enticing. But I take your point. I guess I’d go with “often” but only on a hunch and with no supporting disembodied evidence.

QFT&Y: Quoted For Truth and Yucks. I wonder if anyone has come out with a Big Book of Truth for Complete Dummies yet?

Leap, dang nab you, Leap!!! :wink:

3 Likes

Shall we now?

Leaping lizards! Oh not on my account you hop when you think the moment is right. :wink:

1 Like

I never encountered anything remotely like that. The judges for debates tended to be people with the ability to absorb encyclopedic knowledge about a topic and I never encountered a judge who wasn’t familiar with any and every source a team might have. The only “most likely to be accepted” only barely showed up because judges disagreed over the ranking of sources, e.g. does a piece by an investigative reported for the New York Times sit higher than a statement by a U.S. Congressman.
Teams that “cherry-picked” rarely made it even to quarter-finals because they generally ended up thin in overall information on the topic and/or ended up losing every round when they drew defense when they preferred offense. Indeed one measure of a team’s effort was how broad their sources were; a team with a narrow list of sources tended to be a team knocked out on the first round.

Substitute “the finals” for “truth” and that describes high school debate – just add that the debaters who regularly made it to quarter-finals spent the time that classmates used to watch sports searching through the latest publications for mention of anything related to the topic. My brother and I filled almost three drawers in a file cabinet with our research the year the topic was “Resolved: That Congress should prohibit unilateral United States military intervention in foreign countries.”, and more than that when the topic was “1970-1971 — Resolved: That the federal government should establish, finance, and administer programs to control air and/or water pollution in the United States”. We spent six or more hours per week tracking major publications, the Congressional Record, think tank reports, scientific papers, and even the evening talk shows just in case someone important in policy decisions happened to be on.

I think it was being on the debate team that taught me how to do research; I breezed through writing term papers while others struggled because I already knew how to dig for sources, how to evaluate those sources, and how to organize to led up to a conclusion in an argument that had to fit a given amount of space.

Oh – I also learned to talk fast. One of the regular comments from other speech contestants was that debaters talked faster than they thought was humanly possible. I remember watching the finals one tournament between two teams that had buried everyone they came up against (including my brother and I; both members of both teams had photographic memories . . . ) where anyone in the audience making the least noise would be ejected because those debaters talked fast enough even the judges were hard put to follow them.
Speaking of talking fast, here’s an example of debater-speak outside debate: “mungry, squeat” which is “I’m hungry, let’s go eat”, said faster than a regular person could finish the second syllable in ordinary speaking (by my senior year that was shortened to “gree-squeat”). Or in debate, “New York Times” came out “Nyorktems” quite often.

Another change so it matches debates: substitute “winning” for “learning” in the first sentence, then “winning” for “change” in the second.
That fits in particular the tournament where our top three debate teams met after the evening session and commandeered one of the motel rooms; we spread all of our material out on every available surface in order to totally re-evaluate our strategies because during the evening news there had been new policy statements from the White House and from a Senate committee; two of us kept one ear to the TV news for responses from anyone either known as a player (easy to track) or who might come up with a new angle or insight (pain in the butt).

Yeah, I have a problem with that, too. Some of the most important truths I’ve ever dealt with seemed to come in fits and starts. Others did arrive mostly “at once”, such as the realization that the Genesis Creation story fits a known ancient hear eastern literary category, but took years to work out how that makes Genesis 1 read so drastically different from traditional takes.

1 Like

LOL

This brought back a memory: a couple of us one summer between university short courses spent half a week skydiving, then when the daily temperatures shot up by ten degrees headed up to a river with all sorts of cliffs and bridges and such, and we discovered something: having been jumping from 10k feet, we found ourselves looking over edges where we used to just launch into the air and down to the water forty or more feet below and pulling back. Jumping from thousands of feet up gave time to think, to eye the landing, to get everything just right and safe, but forty feet? fifty? Anyway, one day we were eyeing a 42-foot jump and thinking it through and someone behind us hollered, “Just jump already! Jump!!”

2 Likes

Our speech team actually used rotating a hand counter-clockwise as a signal to “turn it off!” Though it didn’t apply to the debate team if during a tournament some new statement by someone – congresscirtter or whoever – relevant to the debate topic; when that happened our various debaters gathered in one room for a “council of war” to get the new information integrated into our strategies before the tournament started up again (usually about 9 a.m.) in the morning [I recall one all-night session due to the WHite House sounding off on the topic, followed by a Senate committee heard making a statement, and then all the pundits had to weight in and they didn’t shut up till almost 1 a.m. Pacific time . . . I think that’s when I started to hate Henry Kissinger].

1 Like

I know I must sound like a broken record, Holy Post fan boy around here, but this latest podcast is a gem among gems - the whole thing. The initial discussion about all the middle east turmoil today and how we handle or fail to handle it, as well as the N.T. Wright interview, of course.

4 Likes
  • An interesting podcast, IMO. When the David French’s article in the Atlantic Monthly was mentioned, the comments turned to the topic of "the inadvisability of ‘social justice’ advocates jumping on the give’emhell train in the context of recent Hamas-Palestinian-Israeli conflict. And Phil mentions “MLK ethics” and “the model of Jesus” & "the way of Jesus. And a question was born in my brain: "If Jesus is a ‘model’, is ‘the way of Jesus’ an algorithm for behavior? I stopped listening to the podcast at that point, and will return to it later.
  • At this point, I’m still mulling the question over: Is Jesus 'a model? And other questions followed:
    • Can a model be a saviour?
    • If so, implement the algorithm.
    • If not, what’s to implement?
4 Likes

Now I MUST listen, so I can follow the discussion.

1 Like

All I meant was that in propositional warfare there are always some facts which better align with the position you want to make and obviously those are the ones to choose in order to win. Proof texting is often criticized for doing the same in regard to scripture, but that wasn’t what I was going for here.

So I hear you defending HS debate as educationally useful and I’m sure it was for the reasons you gave. Another would be that it might teach you to consider the best case that can be made on either side of a conclusion. With that you can hope to do a better job than most in steel manning those with whom you disagree.

But in relation to apologetics, it rarely seems to extend to steel manning the case against. So the question becomes, in my mind, what responsibilities should come with those superior powers of research and presentation of arguments. Within the domain of apologetics it appears to an outsider to Christianity that fair mindedness and fair treatment are almost off limits as decisions an apologist is at liberty to make. Whatever your individual sense of right and wrong may be, the idea that you are arguing for God seems to trump all else. Some might emphasize conduct toward others most befitting a high Christian ideal but it sure seems most just have a crusader mindset which emphasizes the end over the means. As a result the scalp on the belt becomes a prideful accomplishment for God’s self appointed defender. It doesn’t cast Christianity in its best light.

@jammycakes

  • I am now on my way to becoming one of the smartest guys in the world; none too soon, I might add.
    • There’s a long version of how I got here, but I’ll save you the time and effort of finding out.
  • Simply starting here: The Scientific Method: Crash Course Biology #2, I’m on my way!