Physicalism and its implications

Okay, here’s a defense:

P1’: If intentionality is reducible to the physical, then the facts about intentionality are logically entailed by physical states

P2’: The facts about intentionality are not logically entailed by physical states

C’: Therefore, intentionality is not reducible to the physical

Now, presumably you will say you reject P2’. I think that P2’ is self-evident. If you want to say that it is not, then I would respond by asking how you logically derive a mental image of Paris from a set of neuron transmissions.

Now, you might say that we can “reverse engineer” a set of electrical signals into a picture on a screen. Sure, but in that case we’re assigning meaning to the signals from the outside and the ultimate image is composed of photons. The image production is logically entailed by the physical states within the system. That’s obviously not available to us in our brains.

Yes, because it’s just a rewording of the conclusion that could be applied to any premise:

P1: Giraffes are not pink.
P1’: The facts about giraffes are not inclusive of pinkness

That’s simply incorrect, P2’ is a statement about what a thing logically entails, while the conclusion is about a thing’s metaphysical nature.

It seems to me that this framing of premise transfers the onus of support away from the party making the assertion. Given that the conclusion is absolute, the premise is really that “intentionality cannot emerge from physical states”, which is not so self-evident. In that case, the conclusion does not hold even if it remains unknown how mental images form in consciousness.

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No, the proposed premise is not interchangeable with P2’.

Here’s P2’ again: “The facts about intentionality are not logically entailed by physical states”

Note that the subject is the “facts about intentionality” not intentionality itself. I’m referencing the “content” of an intentional state. I make no reference to the nature of intentionality or whether it is emergent.

I may be missing some subtlety here, but if perception, consciousness, and intentionality is entirely emergent from physical processes, I fail to see how the content of our thoughts then precludes reducibility to the physical.

Could you elaborate on the facts about intentionality?

Sure. Right now I’m thinking about Paris. Obviously, “intentionality” itself isnt an image or images of Paris. Yet the facts of the intentional contents of my thoughts are about Paris.

I’m just going to respond to you for a while. The conversation is just turning into a battle of terms and arguments :joy:

I think I once had that. But I brought all of my experiences of “hearing” God into question when I first started wondering about all the brain stuff. I’m not sure how to look past the thoughts I mentioned before: feeling hyper aware of my mental state and thoughts, and reducing them to electric and flesh.

Cognitive dissonance happens when we believe one thing, yet perceive another in the world around us. That’s sort of what’s happening for me: I don’t feel/hear God, so it is troubling my belief in that personal God. But I also acknowledge that I felt Him prior to questioning things. So there is the possibility that I should be just ask skeptical of my lack of feeling as I am the feeling itself. I think someone said on another thread, “doubt your doubts.”

Still, it’s hard to turn that automatic materialistic reinterpetation off.

Yep. For example, Tertullian, from the ~2nd century AD. Or contemporaries like Peter van Inwagen. I think there are contributors here that suspect future resurrections would require the generation of the original, physical forms, or that the ‘soul’ is coincident with the physical brain and function. It’s more about dualism (or contra dualism and idealism(?)) than about the existence of God, per se.

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A God who is Spirit could guide evolution to the point where physical creatures were capable of relationship and love both with their fellow creatures and with himself. Yet we collectively turned away from God, so he left us on our own for a while and eventually brought Jesus onto the scene – the God-Man who unites the physical and spiritual worlds and makes communion with God possible again. That’s the simple version.

The subconscious isn’t the product of random neural networks; it’s the product of memory. Similarly, psychosis isn’t random. The human brain, because it’s more complex than animal brains, is subject to mental illnesses like schizophrenia and depression, which can be the product of neural networks malfunctioning. Like every other human who ever lived, you’re a product of biological (brain) and cultural evolution. Things occasionally go wrong in both those dimensions.

This reminds me of Wittgenstein, the greatest philosopher of the 20th century. An article by Roy Monk, his friend and biographer.

From the article:
Nearly 50 years after his death, we can see, more clearly than ever, that the feeling that he was swimming against the tide was justified. If we wanted a label to describe this tide, we might call it “scientism,” the view that every intelligible question has either a scientific solution or no solution at all. It is against this view that Wittgenstein set his face.

There are many questions to which we do not have scientific answers, not because they are deep, impenetrable mysteries, but simply because they are not scientific questions. These include questions about love, art, history, culture, music-all questions, in fact, that relate to the attempt to understand ourselves better. There is a widespread feeling today that the great scandal of our times is that we lack a scientific theory of consciousness. And so there is a great interdisciplinary effort, involving physicists, computer scientists, cognitive psychologists and philosophers, to come up with tenable scientific answers to the questions: what is consciousness? What is the self? One of the leading competitors in this crowded field is the theory advanced by the mathematician Roger Penrose, that a stream of consciousness is an orchestrated sequence of quantum physical events taking place in the brain. Penrose’s theory is that a moment of consciousness is produced by a sub-protein in the brain called a tubulin. The theory is, on Penrose’s own admission, speculative, and it strikes many as being bizarrely implausible. But suppose we discovered that Penrose’s theory was correct, would we, as a result, understand ourselves any better? Is a scientific theory the only kind of understanding?

Enough for now. My apologies to the other 60+ posts I didn’t have time to read.

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I am a physicalist and a dual aspect monist according to the definitions I could find. Or at least I am only a physicalist according to the definition that physicalism just says the universe is physical, and dual aspect monism just says the mind is physical. But I should point out the distinction from metaphysical naturalism – I am not a metaphysical naturalist. I do not believe the physical universe is the limit of existence. I believe there is more – a spiritual or supernatural existence which includes God the creator. So I am not a physicalist in the extended sense which opposes this to say only the physical exists.

I certainly reject Plato and Descartes’ dualism, instead believing the mind to be entirely physical as all the scientific evidence shows. I am a Christian but reject the Gnostic (Plato) distortions of Christianity like Neoplatonism which concocted a syncretistic fusion of Christianity with Plato’s pagan philosophy. Furthermore, I reject the pan(en)theistic distortions which demote God from creator of the universe to something more like a dreamer of a universe with no real independent existence.

The universe is entirely physical but created by God who is spirit. Thus the spiritual is the greater reality and the physical is the artificial fabrication of a creator for a specific purpose.

Those who prop up their belief in God with philosophical premises have replaced their faith in God with faith in these false premises. Replacing God in this way for the sake of confidence does not aid them connecting to the God who is real.

The correct connection with God is not philosophy but faith. You make a choice to believe in the completely different reality, spirit, for which there is no (nor can be any) objective evidence either way.

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We should not put our trust on our feelings and should judge what is assumed to be talk of God. Learning that is part of the growth as a believer.

Going through our observations intellectually is fine. We should just remember that our observations about the acts of God are very limited and mostly indirect. We do not see or know what happens behind the curtains, in the reality that is invisible for us, we only see the consequences in the material world around us. It could be compared to the wind - we do not see the wind but we can see how the wind affects the visible reality.

When there seems to happen little in our personal life, spending time with the other believers in the congregation and elsewhere may keep us in touch with the work that God is doing today; seeing and hearing how God answers to the prayers.

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Well said. I sign on.

Back when I did a lot of spiritual reading and discovered a lot of Catholic writers from the past like St. John of the Cross, I was surprised how often they talked about periods of “dryness” when the Spirit seemed absent. Or as Kempis said in “Imitation of Christ,”

JESUS has always many who love His heavenly kingdom, but few who bear His cross.
He has many who desire consolation, but few who care for trial. He finds many to share His table, but few to take part in His fasting. All desire to be happy with Him; few wish to suffer anything for Him. Many follow Him to the breaking of bread, but few to the drinking of the chalice of His passion. Many revere His miracles; few approach the shame of the Cross. Many love Him as long as they encounter no hardship; many praise and bless Him as long as they receive some comfort from Him. But if Jesus hides Himself and leaves them for a while, they fall either into complaints or into deep dejection.

In my own experience, God seems absent more than present. I try not to complain too much, but the OT is filled with complaints against God. It’s called prayer.

Note: I should also add that San Juan de la Cruz coined the phrase “Dark Night of the Soul” in his poem of the same name, then wrote a whole book expounding on its meaning. He’s also one of the greatest poets of the Spanish language. One of my faves:

Stanzas applied spiritually to Christ and the soul

  1. A lone young shepherd lived in pain
    withdrawn from pleasure and contentment,
    his thoughts fixed on a shepherd-girl
    his heart an open wound with love.

  2. He weeps, but not from the wound of love,
    there is no pain in such affliction,
    even though the heart is pierced;
    he weeps in knowing he’s been forgotten.

  3. That one thought: his shining one
    has forgotten him, is such great pain
    that he bows to brutal handling in a foreign land,
    his heart an open wound with love.

  4. The shepherd says: I pity the one
    who draws herself back from my love,
    and does not seek the joy of my presence,
    though my heart is an open wound with love for her.

  5. After a long time, he climbed a tree,
    and spread his shining arms,
    and hung by them, and died,
    his heart an open wound with love.

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Why do that? It would be an example of limiting ones mind and making faith into something blind.

Just the existence this interpretation and your awareness of it doesn’t mean you have to believe it. Mostly I don’t see it going anywhere fruitful for the living of my life. I keep the awareness of it to understand how some people think, and then choose differently for the living of my own life.

Why do we see other people with minds of their own? It is interpretation and rather largely a projection of belief. We believe there are other minds and so we interpret the motions of human bodies we recognize as the actions of another mind. In the case of God, we just don’t restrict ourselves to anything so localized but rather see the mind acting behind all the events of our life together in one totality. No I don’t mean God is controlling and responsible for everything, just that God is a participant in everything. And we see this because we believe this person exists the same as any other people. There is no perception without belief.

Now to be sure, in science we abstract an objective perception of things apart from our belief by restricting ourselves to written procedures which give the same results regardless of what we want or believe. This objective observation of science is very useful to be sure. But life requires subjective participation where what we want matters. Thus I think there is something very wrong (even self-destructive) in forcing yourself to choose one or the other (particularly choosing science over life). And I don’t see choosing against science as very reasonable either.

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An interesting note in the Gospel according to Luke is what happens after the baptism of Jesus. Jesus is full of the Holy Spirit and is lead by the Spirit. Spirit-filled life. Where does the Spirit lead him?
Into the wilderness, to being alone, fasting, feeling hunger and being tempted.

Not quite what we would expect from Spirit-filled life. But it was a necessary step on the way. After the wilderness period, Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit.

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Re your obsession: The sum total of reality has to be self-existent in part or whole, because there’s nothing else for it to depend on. Self-existent = divine. Three world religions say it’s a part, and three say it’s the whole. Judaism, Xnty, & Islam say it’s one part of reality - God - on whom the rest of reality depends. Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism say it’s being-itself that’s self-existent and the world of our experience is made of it. The Hindu term for it is Brahman-Atman, Buddhism has several terms (suchness, nothingness, dahrmakaya, etc), and Taoism calls it the Tao. There is also Naturalism: the belief that some part of the natural world is self-existent. The currently popular versions of Naturalism are Materialism and mind/body Dualism. It is impossible to conceive of any cosmic scenario that doesn’t propose (or tacitly leave) something in the role of the Divine reality.

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Given the 23rd Psalm, we should have:

He restores my soul.
He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name’s sake.

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death . . . .

Paths of righteousness lead from restoration of the soul right into the shadow of death.

I think we have in this narrative exactly what we should expect.

Perspective 1: The critical scholar would say it’s a fictional story about Jesus entirely created to contrast his faithfulness with the unfaithfulness of Israel during the 40 years in the wilderness. All his responses seem to be from the sections of Deuteronomy that recount Israel’s wilderness failures. His success triumph where they failed. A highly crafted theological construct designed to present Jesus as the faithful or true Israel or as a new and greater Moses. That Jesus is having a conversation with the devil strengthens this.

**Perspective 2: a Christian inclined to think the gospels are more historical can point out there is nothing implausible about an apocalyptic Jewish prophet acting out Israel’s history in the first century. This coheres with other things Jesus said and did and there were two prophets from the first century who acted similarly per Josephus. As Christians, given the extensive typology of Jesus and Israel found elsewhere, one might expect to see something in his life matching the wilderness years of Israel.

The story is about using the spirit to respond appropriately to trials in life. Jesus succeeds where Israel fails. We all know what happens to Jesus in the story later on and even for Israel, before the liberation there was 400+ years of bondage. The prosperity gospel is certainly not Biblical…

Vinnie

It’s a thought-provoking story, to be sure. Three accounts of, presumably, the same event and no witnesses. In two accounts, the tempter is “the devil”; in the third, “Satan”.

  • Whether the story is about “using the spirit” to respond appropriately to trials in life, is, some might say, debatable. Some might say it’s a warning to be careful when you think the Spirit is leading you into a desert to fast forty days.

  • I remember accompanying my father to a hotel in San Francisco to respond to someone’s request to talk with a young man my age who had decided voluntarily to fast in his hotel room. I can’t remember what day of his fast he was on but he had fasted long enough that he could not walk. My father talked him into allowing an ambulance to be called to take him to San Franciscisco General Hospital for treatment.

  • For reference, How Long Can You Live Without Food? Effects of Starvation . Personally, 40 days sure seems like an unreasonably long time.

  • The difference between “being led into a desert” by the Spirit and involuntarily undergoing a physical trial raises questions in my mind too.

  • Given Professor William Newsome’s story about Charles Whitman who, on August 1, 1966, shot and killed 15 people and injured 31 others before he was eventually killed himself, and Prime Video’s “American Tragedy” the word “trial” invites comment if not discussion.