Death for those descended from Adam is the inevitable result of no longer being able to live in the direct, manifest presence of God where there was access to the tree of life that allowed for the possibility of immortality. God is The source and continuous cause of all life; but Adam was specially created and given a distinct ‘job’ to be God’s imager, and was given the privilege of inhabiting the sacred space that united the spiritual realm and the physical realm. Once Adam was kicked out of that sacred space where immortality was offered, death was the inevitable result. Sin lead to death.
Death for those descended from Adam is the inevitable result of no longer being able to live in the direct, manifest presence of God where there was access to the tree of life that allowed for the possibility of immortality. God is The source and continuous cause of all life; but Adam was specially created and given a distinct ‘job’ to be God’s imager, and was given the privilege of inhabiting the sacred space that united the spiritual realm and the physical realm. Once Adam was kicked out of that sacred space where immortality was offered, death was the inevitable result. Sin therefore lead to death.
1 Cor 15:50-52, I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
I understand the fantasy. it is okay I think because real life sometimes seems like a fantasy such as the quantum mechanics and stuff, the vastness of the universe is beyond our fantasy. My current understanding is that there will come a time when we as believers will be clothes with immortality. Paul gave us a glimpse of what will happen to us and it might give us a clue of what would happen if Adam and Eve did not sin. Their physical body either will die naturally and then transformed or the living physical bodies will be changed to immortality. Even Enoch and Elijah who did not experience natural death should experience the same transformation. We will have the same kind of body that Jesus have after His resurrection. Sound like a fantasy. even better than a fantasy I think because it will be a reality for us.
I would not disregard any part of the bible as I see it as the word of God Himself. the only problem with seeing those passage as you did is because you try to insert your preconceived understanding of spiritual death into that passage. Those passages perhaps might refer to what you say (I am not saying that you are wrong in interpreting them that way), but they do not teach that.
When God in Genesis spoke… I am not sure it is wise to build your theology from Genesis when the interpretation might vary from one person to the other. My take on that passage is that God was talking about eternal death. For you, it is spiritual death. Well, then we agree to disagree.
Jesus in Luke… this is such an obscure passage that your interpretation is actually make a lot of sense. But the problem is you don’t build your theology on such an obscure passage. There is another valid interpretation if you check the commentary on that passage. My point is that you try to explain that passage using your preconceived understanding of spiritual death. Which is okay. But that passage do not teach about spiritual death.
What preconceived understanding would that be?
I am just not seeing a justification for your claim that the understanding of these passages are dependent on such a preconception. I actually think it was the other way around – coming up with an understanding of spiritual death because these passages require it.
Did… so far…
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
60. Let the dead bury their dead] i.e. let the spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1; John 5:24-25) bury their physically dead.
So people of the world are dead to Christ. They do not see His beauty, nor do they hear His voice or desire to follow Him. Only His “sheep” will do those things (John 10:27). The people of the world are those whom the Savior describes here as the (spiritually) dead who should bury the (physically) dead. (from here)
Three men came to Jesus saying they wanted to be disciples, but they did not realize the sacrifices they would have to make in following Jesus. The first man was told to think seriously about his professed intentions, because following Jesus would bring with it physical hardship and discomfort (Luke 9:57-58). The second was warned that responsibilities towards Jesus must come before ordinary worldly responsibilities. The spiritually dead, whose interests are only in this life, can look after the everyday matters of life; the disciples of Jesus have to attend to the more important business of the kingdom of God (Luke 9:59-60). The third man was warned that Jesus’ disciples must give themselves to him completely. There is no place for those whose real interests are elsewhere (Luke 9:61-62). (from here)
That’s 3 for 3 all giving the same interpretation of Luke 9:60 as I gave. If there really is a different interpretation in some commentary, then I think you should quote it or give us a link.
How can the dead bury their own dead? This is normally taken metaphorically: “Let the spiritually dead bury the physically dead.” This reading would make good on the change of life for which Jesus calls, particularly with regard to the reconstruction of one’s dispositions and behaviors (see on 6:20–49) and of one’s self-identity (see on 9:23). Contemporary Jewish funerary customs make possible another reading. The practice of primary burial (in which the corpse is placed in a sealed tomb) followed by secondary burial (following a twelve-month period of decomposition the bones were collected and reburied in an ossuary or “bone box”) is well attested, with the additional twelve months between burial and reburial providing for the completion of the work of mourning. According to this reckoning, Jesus’ proverbial saying would refer to the physically dead in both instances: “Let those already dead in the family tomb rebury their own dead.”
That is from New International commentary of NT.
The same point I made earlier, do not build your theology on such an obscure passage. It should be based on a clear teaching of biblical passages.
Wow that is a very far fetched interpretation especially considering the context where there is no reason to think the man is speaking of the second burial. This practice of a second burial was not even a universal practice. But worst of all is the implication of advocating profound irresponsibility.
I would agree when it comes to choosing whether to take your understanding from one passage or another. But I don’t agree to the idea that one must limit ones understanding of scripture to being only a parrot. My response to that is the parable of the slothful servant who buries the talent he was given out of fear so he can return exactly the same without any risk.
Agreed. but again, Luke 9:60 is one of the hard saying of Jesus. It is hard to understand. I am just saying that there is an alternative interpretation based on understanding of the Jewish tradition at that time.
Granted. But I haven’t seen any clear biblical passages that teach spiritual death.
The only thing I can think you might be referring to, wasn’t about physical death but about accepting an end to a civilization or a species. That these are things which naturally have a beginning and end. And that this is a part what makes them meaningful. Applying this to physical death sounds a lot like what atheists say about accepting that death is an end to existence.
Perhaps you should explain what you think Lewis’ take on physical death was in that book.
Perhaps I would have to get a copy to make a precise quote. It it your memory or mine that’s at fault in misremembering the physical death of a hnau.
Since all species of hnau were sinless creatures, physical death was the “retiring” to the ethereal kingdom of their Maker – it was sad for a time for those remaining, but not dreaded, and it was part of life. And what was the deadly sea creature called – it was honorable and even somewhat desirable to die in the process of killing one, iirc (which is not a given – it’s been fifty years since I read it 
).
I love that description of physical death of a hnau. will buy that book. CS Lewis is always my fav writer.
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hnakra
I have a copy in front of me but… the closest I can find is…
“And if he kills me, my people will morn and my brothers will desire still more to kill him. But they will not wish there were no hnakeri; nor do I.”
…
“I do not think the forest would be so bright, nor the water so warm, nor love so sweet, if there were no danger in the lakes.”
…
"There I drank life because death was in the pool. That was the best of drinks save one.
“What drink?” asked Ransom.
“Death itself in the day I drink it and go to Maledil.”
Well… I read the book frequently… but memory is a funny thing… more about the meaning we attach to things than any kind of accurate recording.
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Even if there were no other references, that pretty well nails it. Thanks.
Very well then, if you see Garden as historical and Adam and Eve being immortal couldn’t be possible then what was Tree of Life giving them? It seems quite natural to assume that it let them life forever.
The same question I ask you, what was purpose of Tree of Life if not to give them eternal life?
I just don’t seem to see big problem with God being able to make their normal, human bodies not get older while they are in his presence just as Jesus was able to restore decaying body of Lazarus to it’s normal health.
Gen 3: 22-24 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.
From what the bible says, it is supposedly to give them eternal life. So many unknown however in this passage. If you asked what God was and is able to do, then God can do anything He wants.
There is an issue that might interest you related to this point. When Jesus was resurrected, it seemed to me that many people who were close to Him did not recognise him such as 2 disciples on the way to Emmaus, Mary at the tomb and many other instances and even His own disciples who had been with Him for more than 3 years. It might seem to me that Jesus spiritual body (resurrected body) was different in appearance than His physical body. Only when God opened their eyes, then they could recognise that this was the same Jesus who was hang on the cross.
if this is the case, then our normal bodies consisting flesh and blood are not designed to be imperishable.
It certainly represents eternal life. But we know that eternal life doesn’t come from eating a fruit but from a relationship with God. So this barring us from the Tree of Life simply means that the easy relationship we had with God in the garden was broken.
Furthermore I think it is a mistake to equate eternal life with eternal existence especially if you identify the tree of life with eternal life, because the tree of life is described as so much more.
Proverbs 13:12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a desire fulfilled is a tree of life.
Proverbs 15:4 A gentle tongue is a tree of life, but perverseness in it breaks the spirit.
Revelation 22 also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Besides the alternative given for eternal life is not an end to existence.
Matthew 25:46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
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