Pharaoh’s Magicians:Evolution, The Bible, and Modern Gnosticism

Comparisons of Different Translations

Romans 3:23

KJV “which is by faith of Jesus Christ

NKJ through faith in Jesus Christ

NAS “through faith in Jesus Christ

NIV comes through faith in Jesus Christ

RSV through faith in Jesus Christ

REIMS by faith of Jesus Christ

Amplified Bible “which comes by believing with personal trust and confident reliance on Jesus Christ

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It is not through “science” we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. It is by faith. Each verse with the word “faith” is not the word “science.” It does NOT say, By “science” Abel offered unto unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous. God testifying of his gift: and by it he being dead speaketh.
It is by the faith of Christ. Being under the persuasion of and by God.
Not against scientists by all means but these are all of those before us with examples of being under the persuasion of God. Maybe this helps or maybe not. Being under the persuasion of God is not having to know everything scientifically.

Hebrews 11:3

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Hebrews 11:4

By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Hebrews 11:5

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Hebrews 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Hebrews 11:7

By Faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Hebrews 11:8

By Faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 11:9

By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Hebrews 11:11

Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Hebrews 11:17

By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Hebrews 11:20

By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

Hebrews 11:21

By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

Hebrews 11:22

By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

Hebrews 11:23

By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king’s commandment.

Hebrews 11:24

By Faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter;

Hebrews 11:27

By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Hebrews 11:28

Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

Hebrews 11:29

By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

Hebrews 11:30

By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

Hebrews 11:31

By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

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Thanks Kelli, for clarifying for understanding of what is the faith of Christ

Faith is when we do not know or cannot prove. If there is proof then faith is not needed. If your faith flies against evidence., biblical or not, then there is a problem.
Richard

You are right about that!

It is through science that we now understand something of how the worlds were framed.

Kelli and Shannon, you both continue to make it painfully obvious that you have no (or very few) replies to any of the challenges others here have called to your attention from both God’s Word and works. We want to actually listen to and engage with what God has to say to us as we keep our eyes open to the testimonies of his word and his works. We don’t want to disrespectfully misuse and cheapen it by just bulk pasting it in as if there were some “righteousness” contest over who can post the most quotation.

I can understand and sympathize that you both want to just take refuge in affirming each other while ignoring what everybody else here is challenging you with. You are very brave indeed - even as a pair, much less individually - to hang out in what you probably consider very hostile territory. All I’m suggesting is that you’ll probably have more traction with people if you actually listen to what they are bringing forward to you from scriptures and actually engage with what is said. Otherwise, all you’re doing is further confirming the convictions of many here: that the camps who compete to be most seen “defending” God’s Word are the very ones afraid to actually take it seriously and delve into it. Many of us do really dig into it here. Not just use it for righteousness posturing [which is how it comes across anyway].

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Mervin,
If what has been shared is not ministering to anyone then wipe out the thread. When you get a constant accusation of lying or being called a false witness it surely displays a person’s character. Response is not always needed when the attacks are personal.
What version or what translation should be used here?

We will remove anything that is just a personal attack (including my own reply above if you feel it is little more than that). But we don’t generally wipe out long threads that have already had substantial contribution. We aren’t trying to be authoritarian here. People do learn and get ministered to as discussion reveals various things. It just may not be the exact kind of ministry you (or I or anyone else) intended. The Spirit blows where it will.

[And for what its worth - I think your presence here does have a ministry to the whole. We should all be about helping others be even better believers than they already are - and ready to receive that ministry and challenge for ourselves too. Surely you can appreciate an exhortation toward mutuality here?]

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Why is no one explaining what is biblical faith if not through using Scripture which seems to be very offensive on here?

Thanks for your comments Mervin.
We are only here for a short time. What matters most to us is what we spend our time on.
Going to step back from posting for now.

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Most here are Christians. And we take scripture seriously; very seriously. We would certainly utterly reject any suggestion that we find scripture offensive! On the contrary, we esteem it in the highest regard, perhaps second only to our regard for Christ himself.

It is precisely because we take seriously God’s truth in scripture that we endeavour to apply it to God’s truth in his creation, revealed by his gift to us of science.

It is because we take seriously God’s truth in scripture that we reject the interpretative distortions of it made by young earth creationism.

In short: our deep respect for scripture is the very cause of our rejection of young earth creationism.

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Kelli,

You described genuine Christians as having another faith and then in not so subtle words, denigrated their faith as a compromised man/science version. Then call it not a personal attack or #justnotministeringthenforget

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I don’t think there is any official preference that only one particular English translation be used around here. But as far as arbiters of understanding and interpretation go … we try to be partial toward reality. :slightly_smiling_face:

23 posts were split to a new topic: Evolutionary Transitions

Perhaps because you and @Kelli seem to have a unique definition of “biblical faith”.

To me Biblical faith is simply

If you believe this what more is required?

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Kelli, I really have no general interest in challenging the faith of people who are very literal in their reading of scripture, and for them, that settles it. But I wish it were so simple. As we sojourn here on earth, our faith must be cognizant of the world we live in.

Would you trust a bridge designed without recourse to science. If it collapsed, would you accept the designer excusing herself by pleading she had faith it would stand? If a youth in your church set himself on a path to medicine, would you advise him to recuse himself from science classes? Do you refuse to post Bible verses on a forum dedicated to science and faith, because the computer was framed through science. Do you seriously practice what you preach, and live more Amish than the Amish, or are you OK with science right up to where it collides with your dogmatic presuppositions? We live in a world that does not need permission from your doctrines to exist.

Some of your fellow parishioners are actually curious as to why there are craters on the moon, dinosaur bones in the earth, and penguins in the southern hemisphere, why we can see distant starlight, and these questions, which present themselves without the input of evolutionists, left unreconciled will result in distress in the minds many church goers and particularly youth.

That statement does not conflict with the mainstream understanding of science.

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Maybe because you have made the Bible and your YEC interpretation of it into an idol?

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Quite the opposite in fact. Taking it as a licence is evidence of not being born again.

That’s a bit harsh. It definitely is evidence of ignorance and unintentional sin, however. Note my comment above.

It’s not Biblical faith that people are confronting here, Shannon. Your comments about faith are more than welcome, and if anything, they’re a breath of fresh air. What doesn’t go down well here is antagonism towards science. Attitudes that pit science against faith, trying to force us to choose either one or the other, but not both.

Most of us round here take science very seriously for very good reasons. Some of us do so simply because we have to in order to do our jobs properly. Some of us do so because we’ve learned the hard way that we can run into serious trouble if we don’t. There was a while when I took an attitude much like yours – that science was the enemy of faith and that we had to choose one or the other – and my career suffered massively as a result. There are people I know who have taken similar approaches with devastating consequences to their health. And don’t get me started on all the wild conspiracy theories that run rampant in some parts of the Church.

The mission of BioLogos is to show us as Christians that we can take both science and faith seriously, that we can see the two working together in harmony. Sure, we may have to ditch some baggage along the way, such as hard-line fundamentalism and strict literalism, and we may find that we had a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings as well, but if you think we find Biblical faith offensive then you’ve completely got hold of the wrong end of the stick.

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